Military Camp

OK, took the subtle hint: How about scrapping the CHL for something NEW.....

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  • kaidorsai

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    Mar 3, 2008
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    Ft. Hood, TX
    First off, relax.

    I am not a GunBanner. I am just doing some thinking out loud.

    Here are some thoughts: The CHL is a good thing in todays age. With Terrorism hanging over our heads, and Active Shooter scenarios played out in Colorado, Virginia, Texas and other places, it is generally a good idea to be armed.

    But, let us look at this for a sec. Concealed HANDGUN License. OK, say we come into the Parks in Arlington or Grapevine Mills. Shots ring out, deep heavy booms that you automatically know are NOT someones 9MM or .45. All you have is your 9MM and an extra mag. What are you gonna do?

    Me, I am heading to the sound of the guns. My family Would/Should be safe behind me, my wife and I have diagramed this many times. I have a moral and social obligation to save lives if I cqn. THAT is not in doubt. Even the Police acknowledge that they cannot get there in time to save lives as most shootings take place in the first 3 minutes.

    My problem, is ballistics. I carry a .45, sometimes a 9MM. Ol boy is carrying an SKS or shotgun. He can outrange me any day of the week. He MAY be wearing bodyarmor (North Hollywood and I believe Dylan and Klebold as well). Do I engage in a obviously misatched firefight and take the chance of someone else or me being shot? or do I carry the right weapon and end it decisively from cover?

    How about a Concealed WEAPON License. There are categories of pistols that are based on the AR, and AK. These, TO THE BEST OF MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, are not considerd SBR's or NFA weapons. They can be carried easily, used the same as full size brethren and have the capability of deceively ending a AD scenario.

    Or PDW's. While these will most likely need a Class III (I am unsure) it is still a resource that can and should be researched. HK MP7. FN P90 or P2000. Small, concealable and can do the job.

    Me, I simply cannot aford one of those types at the moment. But, One source I trust says we are NOT ready to defend or resolve Active Shooter Scenario's should they come in multiples, or even a Beslan style raid. I DO believe in the concept that someone CAN end AN AD Scenario in its infancy, LONG before the PD can gather its resources, with the right equipment. It simply is a matter of todays reality.

    This is an idea simply in a nutshell. I wanted to see what you folks think first.

    Les
    Texas SOT
     

    TxShooter

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    Mar 16, 2008
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    Houston Metro Area
    Obligation?

    While you may feel you have a social or moral obligation to go running to the fight, I feel you may be going a little overboard. While it is admirable that you feel as you do, it would be almost sheer insanity for you to take action in the manner you have described. If you are in the immediate area and your family is safe and secure, and ou feel you can save lives with your action (including your own) feel free to take action. Do not go running blindly into the fight. By running into the fight you have suddenly become a target for responding LEO's as you will easily be mistaken for the active shooter. Even plainclothes, off-duty and undercover LEO's need to be extremely careful of thier response in this type of situation.

    In Active Shooter training officers are taught to immediately assess the situation and take action against any possible threat. You, Armed, In a Public place after a call of a ctive shooter have suddenly become a target for first responders. Police will not identify themselves and alert you to their presence. They will simply stop what they believe to be the threat, YOU. You would complicate these matters more by using any weapon that may be out of the norm for a off duty LEO or CHL Holder. Any assualt type weapon and there will be no question in responding officer's minds that you are the threat!!!

    For what it's worth, my advice to you simply would be to protect yourself and your family and get out of the area as quickly as possibly can in a safe manner. This is your duty and obligation to yourself and your family.
     

    JKTex

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    Mar 11, 2008
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    DFW, North Texas
    A CHL or the basic right to be armed, s intended for you to be able to defend yourself, family and others. Not go running into a gun fight for no other reason than to get the bad guy. Law Enforcement gets that task, and like TXShooter said, you'll complicate matters and could get yourself killed.

    Unless of course you've been able to get acknowledgment from a LEO that they want your help. That'll usually be if they are in trouble, but you need to have that acknowledgment or request from them so you have liability protection.
     

    Texas1911

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    Austin, TX
    I think it's a license of opportunity. If you can engage the BG on equal ground and accurately put him out of commission then I think it's your duty, and also your right, to defend others.

    If the guy is wearing body armor, and has a rifle, you obviously are at a great disadvantage and are best to secure those around you and get them to safety. This situation has actually been played out in Texas before, two CHL holders have been killed trying to engage armored BG's with rifles.

    That being said, the best thing you can do is to get those around you to safety, and if you so choose, ambush the BG using terrain and cover to your advantage.

    Don't forget you have a duty to your family to remain alive.
     

    Texas1911

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    In regards to your idea regarding rifles and SBR's. I don't think it's a good idea. The public is far to fearsome of "assault" weapons and it would just be an incredible hassle not only to LEO's, but to the gun owners.

    The other aspect is that it would be harder to distinguish nutjob shooters, and would make the public complacent towards carbines in public. It would allow them to get closer to their prey, and also recognize you as a threat. The benefit to concealment is the surprise factor.
     

    TxShooter

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    Mar 16, 2008
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    In regards to your idea regarding rifles and SBR's. I don't think it's a good idea. The public is far to fearsome of "assault" weapons and it would just be an incredible hassle not only to LEO's, but to the gun owners.

    The other aspect is that it would be harder to distinguish nutjob shooters, and would make the public complacent towards carbines in public. It would allow them to get closer to their prey, and also recognize you as a threat. The benefit to concealment is the surprise factor.

    Simply as I early stated a officer responding and seeing a weapon of that type would immediately take action against the weapon holder rightfully believing at the time that the individual was the Active Shooter and a threat.
     

    stockFD3S

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    Apr 19, 2008
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    Leon Valley, TX
    Problem solved ... AK pistol.

    akmblondie2.jpg
     

    machinisttx

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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Do you practice shooting a handgun at distances beyond the normal 15-25 yards most do?

    I don't do it extensively, but I do shoot even my snubbies out to 100 yards so that I know what the sight picture should be to put a bullet on a man sized target.

    That said, I'm not going to willingly face a rifle armed opponent with a handgun.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Feb 21, 2008
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    Do you practice shooting a handgun at distances beyond the normal 15-25 yards most do?

    I don't do it extensively, but I do shoot even my snubbies out to 100 yards so that I know what the sight picture should be to put a bullet on a man sized target.

    That said, I'm not going to willingly face a rifle armed opponent with a handgun.

    I don't yet. Right now I'm still trying to master the 0-15yd area and will eventually move from there up to at least ~50yds just to be familiar with what it's like at those ranges, like you mentioned. I don't believe I've ever shot a handgun farther than 25yds before. Just curious sir, about how much do you normally raise your sight picture shooting at distances like 100yds? I would think you would have to aim several inches above the target, or something to that effect, though I must confess I guess I'm really not aware of how much arc/drop handgun rounds have at those ranges. I've focused most of my self training and learning on the 0-15yd area. Thanks in advance for any input you may have. ;)
     

    ducksps

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    Mar 3, 2008
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    Austin, Houston
    The response is a judgement call

    Does your family have a safe exit while you engage? Can you make a shot that will count? Caliber or firearm is irrelevant if you miss. However, a miss buys time and sometimes that will save lives.

    The whole scenario can be played out till we go batty, but a miss alone buys time in the bad guy reaction. Can a Police Officer mistake you for the shooter, YES. Murphy is going to be on either the bad guys or our team and that is unavoidable. Do what is right for no other reason than avoiding a regret on the rocking chair we all hope to occupy when old. Getting old will not matter if you cheated to arrive.

    No one will want to be a bad guy when a quick response is normal in society. Suicidal bad guys open fire on police or gun shop owners, crazies wanting fame kill in gun free zones hoping for reporters to immortalize.

    I own or can legally carry nice equipment that is not available to most folks or non celebrity/political types willing to spend money or influence. The only piece that matters is the one I have daily, STI Ranger (1st gen compact, discontinued) 6shots of 45 acp. Not many rounds but a pistol I can carry everyday and use when needed. (A shop I have sells STI and I think they are great but most premium pistols will fit the bill). (Rolex, TAG, Porsche, Ferrari, do your job and the rest will be covered.)

    Whatever is available may be the right gun but the person willing to do the job while in the bad spot is the hero. Few people fight any longer giving criminals’ false security to do bad things. I know a local IPSC shooter who is playing with an el-cheapo hi-point entertaining the idea of using it in the entry of a major match to piss EVERYONE off. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THEM but it does reinforce the fact of making yourself a better person and being ready with whatever tools if needed.

    Hoping to chat or be chatted about on the rocking chair,
    Chris
     

    welmack

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    Apr 22, 2008
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    Amarillo, Tx
    I have hesitated to reply on this thread, but have decided to jump in. My obligation to "Protect and Serve" ended when I laid down my badge. I am now just John Q Citizen and my obligations are severely limited, as are my options, during an incident of this nature. If in a situation such as you described, my course of action will be to take a defensible position with as many around me as will follow, and wait for either the bad guy (guys) or the cavalry to come. Those who wish to go running out into the storm have made their decision just as I have made mine. I have no desire to be shot down by a well intentioned officer or any other person. I can live with my decision and sit in my rocking chair quite comfortably in my sunset years. JMHO.
     
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