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Powder loads min-max

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  • popper

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    If a light load with 165gr cast on a 150# pig goes all the way through back to front and breaks a leg, you don't need hot loads for animals. Pig can run just as fast on 3 as 4. Only dangerous animals in world are ones after YOU. Hot loads won't really make a difference, if you didn't have enough gun, too bad.
    Target Sports
     
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    MyEmptyWallet

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    Hodgdon reloading has both standard and Max pressure data for 45 Colt, though I would recommend getting a reloading manual as well. Welcome to reloading.
     

    Texasgrillchef

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    All awesome advice everyone. Thank tou very much.

    What i think I am going to do, is to just use what Legigh defense uses for their “factory ammo” loads. Same powder and measures for each projectile/caliber. That way i know its safe. And just load my own to save money on those. The factory loads work just fine for defense of animal or human. For all my calibers, using what they use for their factory loads, i can get by with four powders.

    As far as the FMJRN and even the free bullets from Hornady, I will just follow the two manuals I do have. And go with a nice low to midlow charge. This will save powder, increase case life, & be safer. Its just target practice anyways & i dont think for the handguns it will affect accuracy at 15 -25 yards enough to make a big enough difference anyways. Im not compition shooting & I am good enough shot to always get my shots on the target im shooting. Usually within a good 8” circle at 25 yards.

    My 45-70 i have sighted at 75 yards. And i havent noticed much difference in accuracy betweem factory target rounds and LD rounds. So i am hoping my light target loads wont have much if any impact on accuracy from the LD factory style loads. Again not compition shooting either.

    Question. Once i find a good powder that works well for each caliber. Why not stick with that powder that works? Looking at just the hornady manual alone. I can get 5 different powders (not counting the ones for LD, for 9 total different powders) Basically one each of the 5 powders for my 5 different calibers.
     
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    Texasgrillchef

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    Several more questions:

    1. My 45-70 is rated to 50,000 cup.
    In two load manuals, one is a Hornady. Hornady lists for the same bullet a 300gr HP with Alliant Reloader 7 and max CUP of 25,000 between 31.6g and max 43.3g
    And for a CUP max of 40,000 and same powder they list min-max as 44.7g to 50.4g. Not that I would. (I wouldnt simply cause that would use more powder and cost more money, besides safety reasons) But I amasking for learning and curiosity. Would it not be possible to go above that maximum and still be safe and obtain a higher CUP then hust 40,000?

    2. I have noticed in the Hornady manual.... that for several bullets at a particular caliber they list anywhere from 9-15 different powders. Is their an advantage of choosing one powder over another?

    3. Hypothetically speaking. Am i correct in assuming logically based on physics, that there is a point that a brass case cant physically handle a hot load no matter what gun it is put into. Meaning that if one designed a gun that could seriously handle a 1,000,000+ cup, in lets say a 45 colt. That physical limits would apply in a. Physical room to load enough powder to get to that point, and b. Whatever u were able to put into a 45 colt case, & even if fired in that gun, it would still “kill” the case before it even would come close to killing the gun?

    My last question is still one that still hasnt really been answered.

    How can you tell if your powder load is an overload and to much for the gun you fired it in and you should reduce the amount of powder in your load? Since each gun is different and what a max load for one gun isnt always true for another gun of the same caliber.
     

    benenglish

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    Is their an advantage of choosing one powder over another?
    Many. With experience, you'll find that some factors in powder choice become important to you because you have your own unique set of priorities. When that happens, you'll automatically winnow down the list of potential powders to use for any one application based on any number of things. Examples?
    • One powder may be more efficient than another, producing the same velocity with less powder. If they're equal in price and you go through a lot of it, you can save some money. Normally this is no big deal but, in certain cases, it can be a factor to consider.
    • Some people object to certain types of powders. For example, some people swear by ball powders, some at them. For reasons that they consider important, they won't use ball powder...or they'll try to use it everywhere. If you develop such feelings, you'll bypass some powders.
    • Some people object to compressed loads and among those long lists of powders used in common cartridges, it's not terribly rare to see some loads that require compression.
    • Some powders are physically inconvenient. If you meter your loads, you'll find some powders meter much more consistently than others. It's fairly common for shooters who reload a lot to abandon any powder that slows them down at the loading bench unless they get some other huge advantage from that powder to make it worth the trouble.
    • Sometimes you'll catch a great deal and buy 80 pounds of one powder. When you do that, you find that it can be used in many cartridges where it's not necessarily the best but it works well enough so you justify doing no further experimentation with that cartridge. (Experience is a helluva teacher, btw.:))
    • I'm sure I've missed something but the biggest reason, to my mind, is that your particular firearm will simply like some powders over others. Within the margins of error of what's being measured, it's possible to find two different powders that will push the same bullets at the same velocity while developing the same pressure BUT one will shoot nice tight groups and the other will produce significantly larger groups. I've never seen this phenomenon fully explained and I don't think anyone knows enough about interior ballistics to say, in advance, that a particular powder will work better than any other in a particular rifle or pistol.
    Some firearms are incredibly picky; you can try 10 powders and only find one that really works. Luckily, most aren't quite that picky. More commonly, most guns will produce ho-hum, bordering-on-acceptable accuracy with most every theoretically suitable combination you try. You'll run across a powder or two that is inexplicably inaccurate. Eventually, if the firearm is good enough for you to tell the difference, you'll find one powder that works measurably better (according to whatever you think is important to measure) and you'll settle on that one.

    There are some general guidelines. You can ask around about what powders are known to work in particular cartridges. There's a list, of varying lengths, for every cartridge. Folks who love and have reloaded for that cartridge for 50 years (or as long as the cartridge has existed) are out there and they can tell you "Oh, yeah, for that cartridge powder X or Y are usually what you wind up with." Listening to folks like that can save you lots and lots of time and money.

    So -
    • If you care about getting the best accuracy from all your guns, you will either get really lucky or you'll have no choice but to acquire multiple powders and experiment with them until you meet your goals. Start with one or two or three that are generally acknowledged to work.
    • If you care about acceptable accuracy and your definition of "acceptable" is sufficiently wide, just pick one that's generally acknowledged to work and be satisfied with whatever you get.
    • If you care about maximum loads, then I can't help much. I can give you the basic advice to pore over reloading manuals and run the numbers on every use case until it become clear that certain powders produce more velocity in your cartridge than others but that's about all I know. My reloading is focused on accuracy and I almost never approach max loads in anything but that's my choice. Max (and sometimes way above max, as the benchrest shooters know) loads can be very accurate but, for my own reasons, I tend not to play at the extremes.
     

    Texasgrillchef

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    Many. With experience, you'll find that some factors in powder choice become important to you because you have your own unique set of priorities. When that happens, you'll automatically winnow down the list of potential powders to use for any one application based on any number of things. Examples?
    • One powder may be more efficient than another, producing the same velocity with less powder. If they're equal in price and you go through a lot of it, you can save some money. Normally this is no big deal but, in certain cases, it can be a factor to consider.
    • Some people object to certain types of powders. For example, some people swear by ball powders, some at them. For reasons that they consider important, they won't use ball powder...or they'll try to use it everywhere. If you develop such feelings, you'll bypass some powders.
    • Some people object to compressed loads and among those long lists of powders used in common cartridges, it's not terribly rare to see some loads that require compression.
    • Some powders are physically inconvenient. If you meter your loads, you'll find some powders meter much more consistently than others. It's fairly common for shooters who reload a lot to abandon any powder that slows them down at the loading bench unless they get some other huge advantage from that powder to make it worth the trouble.
    • Sometimes you'll catch a great deal and buy 80 pounds of one powder. When you do that, you find that it can be used in many cartridges where it's not necessarily the best but it works well enough so you justify doing no further experimentation with that cartridge. (Experience is a helluva teacher, btw.:))
    • I'm sure I've missed something but the biggest reason, to my mind, is that your particular firearm will simply like some powders over others. Within the margins of error of what's being measured, it's possible to find two different powders that will push the same bullets at the same velocity while developing the same pressure BUT one will shoot nice tight groups and the other will produce significantly larger groups. I've never seen this phenomenon fully explained and I don't think anyone knows enough about interior ballistics to say, in advance, that a particular powder will work better than any other in a particular rifle or pistol.
    Some firearms are incredibly picky; you can try 10 powders and only find one that really works. Luckily, most aren't quite that picky. More commonly, most guns will produce ho-hum, bordering-on-acceptable accuracy with most every theoretically suitable combination you try. You'll run across a powder or two that is inexplicably inaccurate. Eventually, if the firearm is good enough for you to tell the difference, you'll find one powder that works measurably better (according to whatever you think is important to measure) and you'll settle on that one.

    There are some general guidelines. You can ask around about what powders are known to work in particular cartridges. There's a list, of varying lengths, for every cartridge. Folks who love and have reloaded for that cartridge for 50 years (or as long as the cartridge has existed) are out there and they can tell you "Oh, yeah, for that cartridge powder X or Y are usually what you wind up with." Listening to folks like that can save you lots and lots of time and money.

    So -
    • If you care about getting the best accuracy from all your guns, you will either get really lucky or you'll have no choice but to acquire multiple powders and experiment with them until you meet your goals. Start with one or two or three that are generally acknowledged to work.
    • If you care about acceptable accuracy and your definition of "acceptable" is sufficiently wide, just pick one that's generally acknowledged to work and be satisfied with whatever you get.
    • If you care about maximum loads, then I can't help much. I can give you the basic advice to pore over reloading manuals and run the numbers on every use case until it become clear that certain powders produce more velocity in your cartridge than others but that's about all I know. My reloading is focused on accuracy and I almost never approach max loads in anything but that's my choice. Max (and sometimes way above max, as the benchrest shooters know) loads can be very accurate but, for my own reasons, I tend not to play at the extremes.


    Wow thats alot of info! Thanks! I appreciate it

    Some additional questions then...

    Why would someone object to a ball powder or compressed loads?

    I do understand about metering powders and how disc, ball, rod? Powders affect measuring. That makes sense.

    Like i said im not compition shooting, or shooting at sniper distances. So as long as i can get my shots on a pie plate at 100 yards for my 45-70 and 25 yards for my handguns. I am happy. Thats good enough for me. I have been able to do that with every factory load / bullet combination (weight and type) i have tried.

    Hot loads only concern me as far as getting wnough speed on the bullet for penetration of “dangerous animals” at the appropriate distance for the firearm i am using. I would like to use the lightest loads possible as it uses less powder saves money and puts less wear and tear on the cases as well as firearm.

    I guess for me choosing a powder what is important to me, (but not in order of importance) cost, cleanliness (in keepin the gun cleaner then other powders), safety, ease of use, and efficiency & accuracy to some degree. If i try a powder and i find its difficult to keep my shots all in the pie plate. And im not having a bad day at the range, or there are other issues at play. Then i might try another powder.

    Can you tell me what powders you use for what?

    Here are my guns and what i normally shoot.

    Sig Sauer P238 380, 100grain FmJRN
    Barretta 92fs Inox 5” threaded barrell
    115 FMJRN
    Taurus PT111 same ammo as Barretta
    Smith and wesson M&P 2.0 45acp
    200 grain FMJRN, 230grain FMJRN
    Bond Arms 45 derringer 4.25” and 6” barrel 45 colt/410 in both.
    45 cowboy round 250g lead cast
    Henry Mares Leg 45 colt
    Hornady 225grain ftx
    Marlin 1895 SBL 45-70
    Cowboy loads of 300grain and buffalo bore 405grain
    Taurus Raging Judge Magnum 6.5” barell 454 casull/45 colt/410
    405 grain lead cast, 225grain hornady both casull, then the same 45 colt ammo as above.

    Your thoughta?
     

    Howie73

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    I am new to reloading. I am doing as much research as i can and have dowloaded several reloading manuals.

    I also got Hornady AP press and all the dies etc... I am going to be reloading 9mm, 45acp, 45colt, 454 casull, & 45-70.

    I have two reasons for handloading.

    1. Is to lower cost of ammunition so i can save money &/or fire more rounds in target practice.

    2. To provide the best load possible when needing the ammo for self defense with humans &/or animals. Meaning i want to use the “hottest” load possible. I will use new starline brass for all actual ammo i use and store in reserve for personal defense. I wont use any used brass for this purpose.

    I have a very good chemistry and physics background and understanding.

    So i know the following.
    The hotter the load... the less life I will have on my Brass. Also practicing with lighter loads will have less recoil and different accuracy, then the hotter loads. So when actually needing the hotter load for personal defense we might not be ready for the difference i. Aim needed or a higher then we are used to recoil. So i would prefer to “practice” my target shooting at the same or close to the same loads, including same weight of bullet.

    My bullets i wish to use will be FMJRN and Lehigh Defense solid copper Xtreme penetrator/defense controlled fracturing and maximum expansion.

    I also have several 9mm, 45acp, 45lc, 45-70 guns that i will use these rounds in. And in one example the 45lc. I have one gun that needs standard pressure 14k psi rounds and the other 45lc gun can handle 30k psi rounds. I also wish to load +p and non +p rounds for boyh 9mm and 45acp.
    Also the 45-70 is a new gun and can handle the hotter 30k-40k psi rounds too

    My goals:
    1. I wish to keep all costs at as minimum as possible

    2. To obtain the hottest loads possible,
    For rounds for each gun.

    3. To keep reloading and change over of powder as fee as possible and to keep the number of different powders i have to buy at a minimum too. Currently i have Power Pistol, Silouhete, and IMR4198

    Like i said i have several handloading manuals.

    So here is my question.

    Each manual lists a minimum and maximum load. Not all the manuals have the pressure these loads generate. Even in test conditions.

    So how is it I determine what the maximum load i should use for each of guns/caliber? I have read that i shouldnt start at maximum load, and should test first. How do I test? This is what i cant find a how to on, especially with using different guns.

    Second... if i am in the middle of say loading 45lc and i want to change from one bullet to another. (FmJRN to the Lehigh defense Xtreme Defense) they list different powders. How can i use the same powder without switching?

    Third how do i determine what the maximumm load each of my guns can handle?
    I am a newbie myself,went to my local gun shop we’re they reload recommended 1 powder for 1 caliber to get comfortable to the reloading process. Started with ladder from min. To max. Out of Speer book with Speer bullets.also watched Johnny’s reloading online to watch the process since I can’t find a mentor. Has worked for me to get started in the wide world of reloading and tons of info,powders, bullet,primer,COAL = cartridge over all length & list goes on combos out there.
     

    avvidclif

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    When choosing loads I've always looked at the weapon used and barrel length. Short barrel = faster powder. The powder that burns outside the muzzle isn't helping anything and could hurt accuracy. Bullet diameter also comes into play as well as case capacity. If trying for max loads use exactly the bullet, powder, primer, and case as listed. No subs as one change can alter everything. Light to mid range are more forgiving. Oh the minimum is listed for a reason also. Some powders when lightly loaded tend to explode rather than burn and that's not good.

    On detecting a "hot" load. Look at the primer first on pistols and on revolvers also how they extract. A primer should look the same after firing as before except for a little dinkus in the middle. When it starts flattening out and flowing back around the firing pin, back off. If you have to hammer out the cases from a revolver, back off. All of this is predicated on the only change in a load has been the amount of powder. You can't change powders, primers, bullets or cases while working up a load, just the amount of powder.

    Whew, long winded.
     

    benenglish

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    Why would someone object to a ball powder or compressed loads?
    Some people believe ball powders are harder on barrels. Also, in some applications ball powders produce such a concussive muzzle blast that it's annoying to other people on the line and the user decides to stop annoying their fellow competitors. It's no fun when the guy next to you is shooting H110 loads out of his his 10" .30 Herrett.

    OTOH, I know a world champion who selected SR4759 (not a ball powder, just to be clear) for a shortened .284 Win. fired from a pistol. At the time (I have no idea about the last batch) SR4759 didn't have any flash suppressant coating on the powder and it both produced a prodigious fireball and dug up the ground in front of the muzzle. He liked the fact that many of his competitors jumped every time he fired a shot.

    I did say that every person has their own unique criteria for making powder choices, right? :)

    As for compressed loads, that's another variable introduced into a load. Just how compressed is any particular compressed load? How does it change bullet pull? How does the degree of compression change burn rates? Is a long drop tube required to make it work? When you're trying to control variables to make the most consistent ammo possible, introducing yet another variable to control can be counterproductive. I fall into this camp. I understand that compressed loads are fine in certain applications and may sometimes even be desirable. However, I consider compression to be just one more thing to think about and I'd like to keep that list as short as possible. Otherwise, I'm not a stickler about load density.
    Can you tell me what powders you use for what?
    I've slowed down with the passage of years. The most common powder I use is "whatever the factory selected" in .22LR, 9x19 and 7.62x39.

    However, when I reload I just use whatever works.
    • 2400 (usually, but also others) in .44 Magnum,
    • 4227 (Yes, I know I should try Lil Gun.) in .221 Fireball,
    • H4895 and bulk/surplus 4895 in .308 Win. and several others,
    • H4895 (usually, but also others) for reduced loads,
    • H335 in 7x47 (the pistol cartridge, not the Lapua),
    • Trail Boss in nearly everything, occasionally,
    • SR4759 behind cast bullets, and
    • many more, depending.
    I'm really fairly pedestrian and non-experimental in my powder choices. Once I find something that works well enough, I stop looking. Many reloaders will tinker endlessly, God bless 'em, but that's not me.

    What goes on your powder shelf shouldn't be influenced by what's on mine or anyone else's. Those are decisions you have to make for yourself, over time, after as much or as little experimenting is required to reach the personal goals that only you can define.
     

    Texasgrillchef

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    Thanks again.
    According to the Hornady manual. Power Pistol looks to cover the vast majority of what i will shoot target wise, along with Accurate #5 & Silhouette. So am going to try those powders and see what i get. Will load about 20 rounds each. Two calibers i can use both so will load both powders and compare the two after shooting. All three i get at the same price. So will just have to see.

    I found some information on measuring the cases with a micrometer and comparing those with factory loads, and also doing a before and after comparison for so overloads and shouldnt show more then .001” max anything over that i should lower the loads.
     

    TexMex247

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    So far I've read a ton of good info here but there are a few things I think you should also consider...

    There is a long standing belief and possibly some legal precedent regarding producing your own ammo for self defense. Naturally you would want to create "highly effective" rounds for self defense however, it has been said that this is great "ammo"(pun intended) for an opposing legal team in the event that you are sued for killing or badly injuring a person. That is why almost no one reloads for self defense. If you do, I would suggest labeling them as "hunting rounds" and maintaining that description in a public setting.

    I feel the need to also echo the idea that faster is not better for almost every handgun load out there. Rifles tend to perform best at 90 percent or higher load density. It has to do with the dynamics of powder burn, pressure, etc. In a pistol cartridge that is nowhere near as critical. You are also loading a modern smokeless propellant in cartridges originally designed for black powder. If you were stuffing a 45 colt case full of blackpowder and stuffing a bullet on top that would be just what they were trying to do back in the day to push it to its limit.

    I also load for older long colts as well as Rugers. You will find a bunch of load data specific to ruger guns that are right up your alley. However, I have had great success with unique as well as blue dot for those old fashioned high volume, low pressure cartridges. A classic load I enjoy is 8.0 grains of unique under a 250-255gr lead pill. Safe in all guns and unless you are trying to develop a hunting load, no need to beat up your guns.

    Good luck in your endeavor and enjoy the working up process and maybe focus a bit less on high performance. In time you will get there and part of the fun is the journey.
     
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    Power Pistol is probably my favorite powder for .380, 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. It is a clean burning powder and measures consistantly in my powder dispenser.
    As for measuring your cartridges for overloading I have found that is not a very accurate way to check for overloads. Depending on the chamber diminsions of your gun you could see a larger variation than .001. Glocks are known for "Glock Belly". The earlier generations of glocks did not fully support the cartridge and will bulge near the base. A pistol case is really hard to check for overloading by looking at a spent shell casing. Protrusions around the firing pin strike or flattened primers can sometimes be noted but usually something bad happens by the time you realize a pistol case is overloaded.
    Thanks again.
    According to the Hornady manual. Power Pistol looks to cover the vast majority of what i will shoot target wise, along with Accurate #5 & Silhouette. So am going to try those powders and see what i get. Will load about 20 rounds each. Two calibers i can use both so will load both powders and compare the two after shooting. All three i get at the same price. So will just have to see.

    I found some information on measuring the cases with a micrometer and comparing those with factory loads, and also doing a before and after comparison for so overloads and shouldnt show more then .001” max anything over that i should lower the loads.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     

    benenglish

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    I found some information on measuring the cases with a micrometer and comparing those with factory loads,...
    If you're going to check for case head expansion, then you should be doing before and after on your cases. Comparing to factory loads is only useful if your cases are loaded in the same brass; if that's the case, the method has some utility. However -
    As for measuring your cartridges for overloading I have found that is not a very accurate way to check for overloads.
    You make a good point. While we all know that even authoritative reloading manuals once used this method, we also know that since all the big players have gotten good pressure measuring equipment, their max loads have tended to retreat.

    That's not an absolute. In fact, given the changes in powder over the years, it's a really muddy lake we're peering into, trying to see the bottom. I'm not convinced that any average (much less beginning) reloader can get useful information via this method.

    Texasgrillchef, I suggest you bypass this method for now. Fall back on the simpler primer inspection (which isn't perfect, by any means, but is an excellent way of instantly seeing some serious issues) and your basic "Don't exceed the listed maximums" from your reloading manuals.
     

    TheMailMan

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    So far I've read a ton of good info here but there are a few things I think you should also consider...

    There is a long standing belief and possibly some legal precedent regarding producing your own ammo for self defense. Naturally you would want to create "highly effective" rounds for self defense however, it has been said that this is great "ammo"(pun intended) for an opposing legal team in the event that you are sued for killing or badly injuring a person. That is why almost no one reloads for self defense. If you do, I would suggest labeling them as "hunting rounds" and maintaining that description in a public setting.

    https://www.glocktalk.com/a/the-peculiar-problem-of-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.18/

    Please cite precedent.
     

    Texasgrillchef

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    So far I've read a ton of good info here but there are a few things I think you should also consider...

    There is a long standing belief and possibly some legal precedent regarding producing your own ammo for self defense. Naturally you would want to create "highly effective" rounds for self defense however, it has been said that this is great "ammo"(pun intended) for an opposing legal team in the event that you are sued for killing or badly injuring a person. That is why almost no one reloads for self defense. If you do, I would suggest labeling them as "hunting rounds" and maintaining that description in a public setting.

    I feel the need to also echo the idea that faster is not better for almost every handgun load out there. Rifles tend to perform best at 90 percent or higher load density. It has to do with the dynamics of powder burn, pressure, etc. In a pistol cartridge that is nowhere near as critical. You are also loading a modern smokeless propellant in cartridges originally designed for black powder. If you were stuffing a 45 colt case full of blackpowder and stuffing a bullet on top that would be just what they were trying to do back in the day to push it to its limit.

    I also load for older long colts as well as Rugers. You will find a bunch of load data specific to ruger guns that are right up your alley. However, I have had great success with unique as well as blue dot for those old fashioned high volume, low pressure cartridges. A classic load I enjoy is 8.0 grains of unique under a 250-255gr lead pill. Safe in all guns and unless you are trying to develop a hunting load, no need to beat up your guns.

    Good luck in your endeavor and enjoy the working up process and maybe focus a bit less on high performance. In time you will get there and part of the fun is the journey.

    Thank you for the information.m
    So whats the logic behind the legality of hand loading for self defense against a human? Are you saying there would be no legality issues of handloads in defense against a dangerous animal?
     

    TexMex247

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    Well hunting rounds by design are engineered to be "terminally effective" against a soft target. I couldn't see a benefit from categorizing hand loaded ammo as "good for shooting people" when, if they are simply labeled as hunting rounds, that can be implied without any negative connotation.

    I'm not a lawyer, I just think some would consider it, poor etiquette.
     
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