Questions about where I can carry.

[jasonhammond]

My wife is starting a career in the bar industry. I want to get her a sub 9mm to carry in her puris, will she be able to bring into the bar so she has it when she is walking to her car after closing time? We will be getting our CHL before she start carrying in her puris.

 

[DFR]

According to the texas penal code I believe not.

 

[franzas]

Does the 51% rule apply to staff?

Wait for TXI

 

[Koinonia]

Does the 51% rule apply to staff?

Wait for TXI

Definitely, wait for TXI. He's the resident expert!

 

[matefrio]

I'm not a lawyer or TXI.

CHL will not exempt her from 46.02 in a bar.

If the premises "under her control" or she is "supervising the operation of the premises" she's exempt and can carry there open or concealed.

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS


Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;​

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises;

​

Here's some non legal and really muddy water advice. If she has a locker at work where she puts her purse AS SOON AS she gets to work and AS SOON AS she gets the purse back she leaves\gets in her car in my opinion a case could be made for traveling. While she's "AT" work she cannot have the gun in this instance on or about her person.

TXI and\or a real lawyer can beat me up on that one and it's PURE INTERNET JOCKEY advice.

Some safety advice.

Don't leave the bar alone. A trusted employee leaves with her every time.

Before leaving\unlocking the door look out the windows and see what's going on.

Find the well lit and camera areas of the parking lot. She should park under a light and within sight of the door she exits.

She needs to be clear when things need to stop. No polite mixed signals. Practice this with her.

She gets a pissy coustomer who makes any type of threat involve the police.

By some pepper spray and have her take a RAD class. http://www.rad-systems.com/

Bright purse\keychain flashlight. A Comtech Stinger would be nice as well.

 

[txinvestigator]

I'm not a lawyer or TXI.

CHL will not exempt her from 46.02 in a bar.

If the premises "under her control" or she is "supervising the operation of the premises" she's exempt and can carry there open or concealed.

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS


Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;​

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises;

​

Here's some non legal and really muddy water advice. If she has a locker at work where she puts her purse AS SOON AS she gets to work and AS SOON AS she gets the purse back she leaves\gets in her car in my opinion a case could be made for traveling. While she's "AT" work she cannot have the gun in this instance on or about her person.

TXI and\or a real lawyer can beat me up on that one and it's PURE INTERNET JOCKEY advice.

Some safety advice.

Don't leave the bar alone. A trusted employee leaves with her every time.

Before leaving\unlocking the door look out the windows and see what's going on.

Find the well lit and camera areas of the parking lot. She should park under a light and within sight of the door she exits.

She needs to be clear when things need to stop. No polite mixed signals. Practice this with her.

She gets a pissy coustomer who makes any type of threat involve the police.

By some pepper spray and have her take a RAD class. http://www.rad-systems.com/

Bright purse\keychain flashlight. A Comtech Stinger would be nice as well.

I agree with you except for traveling. I do not believe that going to back and forth to work every day, especially at relatively close distances, would be traveling.

 

[jordanmills]

I agree with you except for traveling. I do not believe that going to back and forth to work every day, especially at relatively close distances, would be traveling.

From my very amateur research on precedent, a daily commute that does not cross county lines has been specifically excluded from any definition of traveling.

 

[jordanmills]

IMO, she should be covered if she does something close to the federal transportation exemption requirements. Have the gun unloaded in a locked box, preferably hidden in a bag. Not ideal, but at least she can step outside then unlock the case, maybe even load it while it's in the bag and out of sight. Almost all of the cops I've talked to said they wouldn't consider a gun locked in a case in a bag to be "on or about" the person (unless they were looking for a reason to arrest you). GENERALLY it has to somewhere you can reach, grab, and use without moving your body to another place.

 

[Renegade]

I agree with you except for traveling. I do not believe that going to back and forth to work every day, especially at relatively close distances, would be traveling.

Definitely not traveling per Case Law.

 

[Mreed911]

Definitely not traveling per Case Law.

All of which existed BEFORE the law was changed such that traveling is ASSUMED, meaning it must be proved you WEREN'T traveling vs. you have to prove you WERE.

 

[txinvestigator]

All of which existed BEFORE the law was changed such that traveling is ASSUMED, meaning it must be proved you WEREN'T traveling vs. you have to prove you WERE.

That is not true at all.

 

[Mreed911]

That is not true at all.

Really? Traveling used to be a defense to prosecution. Now, the offense only applies as follows:

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

From this 2007 article, including DA quotes:

Under the old law:

The burden fell on the motorist to prove he was "traveling" and thus allowed to carry a concealed gun without a permit.

Under the new (2007) law:

...the burden now falls on the police officer to prove you are not really "traveling"

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Is she working at a nice, classy establishment on the nice side of town or some run-down dive in the middle of the ghetto?

Only asking because I heard about this story here in San Antonio back in December.

Man shot dead at San Antonio West Side bar - San Antonio Express-News

This bar is not located in such a great neighborhood. Bartender shot a customer dead who had pulled a handgun on him. Don't think charges were ever filed against the bartender for carrying in that establishment.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Point is, whose gotta know? And if God forbid she needs it, I doubt either of you will give a crap about the repercussions if making it out alive.

 

[txinvestigator]

Really? Traveling used to be a defense to prosecution. Now, the offense only applies as follows:



From this 2007 article, including DA quotes:

Under the old law:



Under the new (2007) law:

Yes, really. 46.02 has nothing to do with traveling. The word does not appear in the law. Traveling is not presumed in ANY portion of 46.02, and it need not be proven or disproved by defense or prosecution. It is irrelevant to 46.02.

The quotes you provided from 2007 are meaningless today. In 2007 the legislature added a presumption to the traveling exception in penal code 46.02 that is found in 46.15. It read that a person was presumed to be traveling under 46.15 (b) if 4 criteria were met. However, in 2009 the presumption for traveling was repealed, and 46.02 was amended to make car carry not unlawful, irrespective of travel (The motorist protection act)

Today traveling, found in 46.15(b) is still an act that makes penal code 46.02 not apply. Today, traveling is not defined, nor is there any presumption for traveling. There is no condition, today, under which a person is presumed to be traveling. Today, whether or not a person is traveling as found in 46.15(b) is a matter of fact for a judge or jury.

 

[txinvestigator]

Point is, whose gotta know? And if God forbid she needs it, I doubt either of you will give a crap about the repercussions if making it out alive.

So you suggest she commit a felony? Routinely?

 

[JohnnyLoco]

So you suggest she commit a felony? Routinely?

No. Where do you get off?

Everyone has to make their own decisions.

 

[bones_708]

Having worked in bars I will tell you what I was told and what we operated under. Management can carry absolutely no one else. If she doesn't have keys to the place in addition to whatever title she might have then she better not carry.

 

[txinvestigator]

No. Where do you get off?

Everyone has to make their own decisions.

Where do I get off? Really?

My question was rhetorical. You clearly suggested she carry anyway. Bad advice. Actually terrible advice.

A better decision would be to not work somewhere rather than commit a felony to work there.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Where do I get off? Really?

My question was rhetorical. You clearly suggested she carry anyway. Bad advice. Actually terrible advice.

A better decision would be to not work somewhere rather than commit a felony to work there.

Well, when you come down from your high horse you'll see that the decisions people make on an everyday basis are not always cut and dry like you think. Instead of pretending to be a legal expert, you should accept the realities of an imperfect world.

I'm not giving advice. But neither shall you, at least when the stakes are this high.

This is why I say, where do you come off PompAss?

I'm not about to tell someone where they should work either. I don't try to run folks lives through a computer screen.