APOD Firearms

Questions on selling a handgun

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Old Arn

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 21, 2008
    13
    1
    San Antonio, TX
    I'm about to put my Seecamp up for sale, but I have a few questions before I do. Where can I find the laws on FTF sales? I've tried Google, but all I can find concerns TX residents buying in contiguous states, and not selling to anyone who is intoxicated/drunk/underage etc. Is that it?

    Also, if I did a FTF sale, let's say at the next Saxet Show, could I simply go up to one of the vendors to do a NICS check? I know that TX (or VA, where I'm from) doesn't require this or any paperwork for a private FTF sale, but I'd rather pony up a few dollars to be sure about who I'm selling to. Unless they show me a valid TX CHL, that is. What do you guys use as a bill of sale?

    Thanks in advance.

    Arnold
    Venture Surplus ad
     

    Shorts

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Mar 28, 2008
    4,607
    31
    Texas
    Arnold, when stationed in WA (same FTF laws) we wrote up a general bill of sale, a copy for us and a copy to the other party. We also took a look at each other's carry permit and DL.

    If you do want to go ahead and get an FFL to do a 4473, I'm sure you could do that. Under TX state law, it isn't necessary. You're only in trouble if you "knowingly and intentionally" sell/rent/leases/gives...

    PENAL CODE TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
     

    kingofwylietx

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 29, 2008
    1,424
    21
    DFW area.....Wylie.
    In Texas, you can do a FTF without any paperwork. You pretty much listed the folks you are not supposed to sell to, just add probably felons. You're totally ready to go if they have a CHL.

    As for a check on them........that's not normal for a FTF.

    If you want to cover your rear, you can do a bill of sale. What was sold to who, serial number and date. Have them sign it and keep the receipt for your records. In Texas, if a trooper comes knocking, you just have to say you sold it. However, a lot of people write something up so they have something concret.
     

    nalioth

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 13, 2008
    866
    21
    Houston Metro
    If you must, all you have to do is find a FFL holder and hand him the pistol and ask that a background check and 4473 be done on it. The FFL holder will ask you for your information, and then you're done with it. Get your money at this point from the buyer.

    The buyer can pay the FFL holders fee.


    I've not ever done this on any FTF sale.
     

    Mark F

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 21, 2008
    99
    1
    FFL isn't necessary. Just write up a BOS for you & the buyer. And even a BOS is optional.
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    It's great that you want to go to the extra effort to make sure you're selling to someone that is not prohibited to buy or posses, but make it easy on yourself. ;) Either sell to someone you know well enough to be comfortable with, or just have an FFL do the transfer. $20-$25 and an FFL can complete the transfer and it's out of your hands.

    Otherwise, as said, in Texas you just need to not knowingly sell to someone that is prohibited from buying. There isn't any burden on you to do any fancy footwork to prove anything.

    Hint, if they have on matching striped outfit and remnants of shackles on their ankles or cuffs on their wrists, you might want to look for another buyer. Otherwise, you're good.
     

    40Arpent

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Jul 16, 2008
    7,061
    31
    Houston
    How much do you want for the Seecamp? I have a friend looking for one.

    Feel free to e-mail me at peterichard at peoplepc dot com.

    Thanks,

    Pete
     

    Renegade

    SuperOwner
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 5, 2008
    11,761
    96
    Texas
    I believe that a FFL is not allowed to run a NICS unless it is for a firearm he is selling.

    Kinda correct. He does not have to "sell" it, but it has to be on his books.

    So in this case, FFL puts the gun on his books, and does a 4473 for the buyer, and if the buyer passes NICS he gets the gun. If the buyer does not pass NICS, then the seller has to do a 4473 & NICS to get his gun back. If he fails NICS, he is SOL, cause he is then close to a straw sale if he tries to get is GF/Sister/Brother to do the 4473/NICS to get his gun back.

    So much easier to do cash, gun, handshake, bye-bye.
     

    Texan2

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Nov 8, 2008
    7,932
    21
    South of San Antonio
    I agree...get your money and give him his gun...

    FTF is good as you get to see who you are selling to. The bill of sale does little, as a bad guy could use the gun in a crime and write up a bogus BOS to indicate he didn't have it anymore.

    If there is ever a problem the burden will be on the state to prove that YOU committed a crime. Having onnce owned a gun used in a crime is not illegal.
     

    nalioth

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 13, 2008
    866
    21
    Houston Metro
    nalioth said:
    [B said:
    txinvestigator[/b]]
    I believe that a FFL is not allowed to run a NICS unless it is for a firearm he is selling.​
    No sir.

    That would put all transfer dealers out of business or have them operating illegally.
    I understand the first part, but not the second. Can you explain that a little more please?
    They would be out of business under txinvestigators assumption or transferring guns for folks w/o doing a NICS check.
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    Kinda correct. He does not have to "sell" it, but it has to be on his books.

    So in this case, FFL puts the gun on his books, and does a 4473 for the buyer, and if the buyer passes NICS he gets the gun. If the buyer does not pass NICS, then the seller has to do a 4473 & NICS to get his gun back. If he fails NICS, he is SOL, cause he is then close to a straw sale if he tries to get is GF/Sister/Brother to do the 4473/NICS to get his gun back.

    So much easier to do cash, gun, handshake, bye-bye.

    He already acknowledged he misspoke in regards to transfers.

    I understand the first part, but not the second. Can you explain that a little more please?

    It was hypothetical based on what tx said and acknowledged was incorrect. Hypothetically, if tx was right, then a transfer would be illegal because a transfer isn't a sale, it's a transfer.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    He already acknowledged he misspoke in regards to transfers.



    It was hypothetical based on what tx said and acknowledged was incorrect. Hypothetically, if tx was right, then a transfer would be illegal because a transfer isn't a sale, it's a transfer.

    I flat didn't think about the dealer having to put the gun in HIS books to do the transfer, but as Renegade pointed out, he would have to.

    Seems like a lit of hassle when it is unnecessary.
     

    nine3six

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 16, 2008
    7
    11
    FTF Sales Info

    I know how a FTF sale can be somewhat stressful when you don't know the other individual and you're trying to do the "right thing" Here are a few tips that might help you out.

    Texas law does not require any paperwork to be drawn up on private sales. As a matter of fact, the state does not keep any records or "registration" on guns sold by anyone. When you buy a gun at your local gun shop or sporting goods store, that registration form stays within the store for 20 years. The state has no idea who purchased that gun.

    When someone does a FTF purchase, they are not expecting to do an FFL transfer, that's kinda the point of FTF vs. buying new. Some folks around here do not want unnecessary paperwork tracking their purchases or ownership. That is something to consider, privacy may be that persons primary motive and not that they have something to hide.

    I can usually spot their intent when I ask for a BOS to be made up to protect myself. If they're OK with this and checking their TDL for a matching address and birth date, then they usually have nothing to hide.

    I will not write down any TDL# on the purchaser due to identity theft and such. If they offer to write it, that's a sign they're legit, however I do not write this info fo my own protection.

    Here is a copy/paste of a BOS I use all the time.

    Bill of Sale
    Transfer of Ownership

    For $______ received, I, (SELLER), have sold to (BUYER)
    One (1) (GUN DESCERIPTION), Serial # ______

    I represent that this (GUN DESCRIPTION) is not stolen. I am the owner of the handgun listed above. If it can be shown now or in the future that this handgun was stolen prior to the date listed below, I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the handgun and all accessories listed above.

    Sold as is.
    No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
    Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
    Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.

    Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use thereof.

    Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.

    Buyer: _______________________________

    Address:______________________________
    _____________________________________
    Signature:_____________________________
    Seller: (SELLER)
    Address: (SELLER ADDRESS)
    (CITY, STATE ZIP)
    Signature:_____________________________
    Date:_________________________
     

    paranutz

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 31, 2008
    2
    1
    For FTF transactions, what if the buyer is not from the same State as the seller? For example, a buyer from OK wants a FTF transaction here in TX? I heard BATF requires a transfer to an FFL. Can someone confirm this one? thanks.
     

    Renegade

    SuperOwner
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 5, 2008
    11,761
    96
    Texas
    Someone cite one case where a person did not do a BOS and got in trouble with LE for not having info on who they sold it to. I do not think you can find a single case.

    I think a lot of folks get in trouble for having a paper trail back to them.

    So, I myself would be more worried about a paper trail leading back to me and he ensuing lawsuit for selling the gun to someone, than NOT having a paper trail to show LE I got rid of it.

    Something to think about in this lawsuit happy, who can we blame society.

    YMMV.
     

    Renegade

    SuperOwner
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 5, 2008
    11,761
    96
    Texas
    For FTF transactions, what if the buyer is not from the same State as the seller? For example, a buyer from OK wants a FTF transaction here in TX? I heard BATF requires a transfer to an FFL. Can someone confirm this one? thanks.

    No Sale.

    (B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
    A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.


    (B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

    A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


    ATF Online - Firearms FAQs
     
    Top Bottom