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Rethinking 30.06 and private property rights

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  • Dash Riprock

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    There have been a rash of stories lately about various businesses being coerced by force of law to participate in gay marriage ceremonies against the moral objections of the owner. I saw a story last week about a town in Idaho telling two ordained ministers who ran a for-profit wedding chapel that they would have to perform gay marriages or face potential fines and/or jail time.

    There was the Hobby Lobby thing last year where the Affordable Care Act was being used to coerce a business into providing abortion inducing drugs against the owner's wishes. There was a story a few days ago where the state of California is about to start requiring churches to cover abortions in their employee's health policies.

    There have been any number of things over the years where we've told businesses that if you choose to engage in commerce, you have to comply with X because, well, you engage in commerce with the public, or something. Largely this had to do with civil rights, but also things like the Americans with Disabilities Act and others. However, the gay marriage and abortion proponents seem to have kicked it all up a notch lately, and I am extremely troubled where this is headed.

    Anyway, I don't wish to debate the merits of those issues in this thread. But more and more, these stories are making me wonder why we as gun owners continue to give private property rights the benefit of the doubt and defer to the business owners wishes when it comes to the exercise of our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. We seem to be the only group willing to do that in America today.

    I understand two wrongs don't make a right. I understand I can choose not to patronize an anti-gun business (usually), but so can the gay couple who forced a baker to make them a wedding cake he didn't want to make. I understand private property rights are sacrosanct. I want to believe all that, but is it time we rethought that in the onslaught of all the other things that are going on in the culture lately? When does the "other side" have to be coerced through force of law to respect OUR rights? When does this become a two way street? Was it ever? Should it be?

    Thoughts?
    Texas SOT
     
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    Koinonia

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    Privately owned property. Not Government owned property. Bill of rights gives us protection from infringements from Government, since anything in the borders of a country is generally considered property of a government. You dont have a choice but to be on American land, when you live here, you do have a choice whether or not to go to that restaraunt up the street.
     

    Dash Riprock

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    The gay couple had a choice to go to another florist or baker. The handicapped person had a choice to go to a restaurant that better accommodated his wheelchair. The pregnant woman had a choice to seek employment with a company whose health policy covered abortions (although prior to the ACA I doubt there were very many that did, but that's another story). And yet the government saw fit or is seeing fit to force businesses to accept and accommodate those demands.

    Why is it different for gun owners, especially when we're pretty much talking about concealed carry which nobody should even know you're doing anyway?
     
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    Mexican_Hippie

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    Property rights are what separate us from communists.

    I won't venture down that slippery slope to impose my views on others because I don't have the right to.

    The government is completely out of control telling people how to use their own property.
     

    jrbfishn

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    Just because they are selfish and need courts and gov. to feel better about themselves does not mean I have to stoop to their level. If i do, they win, and gov. gets a little bit more control. And, most important to me, I have belittled myself in my own eyes.

    Unacceptable.


    Sent by a idjit coffeeholic
     

    Mike1234567

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    Well, at least on my own person property (my home) I can still kick off whomever I damn well please... for now... and I can spend my money (or not) at any business I so choose. When that crap comes to my front door they'd better watch out.
     
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    Younggun

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    When I die I will do so knowing I lived by the principles I believed in.

    I won't be joining in on any push to infringe on the rights of another. Property rights included.
     

    jrbfishn

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    ^^^^ Agree. My opinion, handed down from my pop and his two best friends from the old army, one black and one mexican-
    If you take away the rights of anyone, for any reason, you are one step closer to having none yourself.
    When I had my own buisiness, if someone told me that, I would have closed it. I don't like ultimatums or blackmail.


    Sent by a idjit coffeeholic
     

    Recoil45

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    I still don't understand why a gun owner would support 30.06. Property owners who open their businesses to the public choose to give up many of their rights as the examples given show. If you don't want someone on your property with a gun don't open it the public. My rights to self defense should be more important than someone's fear of a hidden gun they don't know I have.
     

    Mexican_Hippie

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    You have no "right" to be there in the first place. Coming into private property is an invitation that can be revoked at any time for any reason.

    We're not a bunch of communists.
     

    Vaquero

    Moving stuff to the gas prices thread.....
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    My property, you have the right to leave. That's the only one I can think of.
    If you break a law while on my property, you forfeit your right to leave.
    I'll hold you till the sheriff arrives.

    Anything else is by revocable permission.
     

    Booyah

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    I still don't understand why a gun owner would support 30.06. Property owners who open their businesses to the public choose to give up many of their rights as the examples given show. If you don't want someone on your property with a gun don't open it the public. My rights to self defense should be more important than someone's fear of a hidden gun they don't know I have.
    No 30.06 notice, of any sort, has any affect on your ability to carry...nor does it address your right to defend yourself.
     

    Whistler

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    Being purely objective I think the OP has a valid point however my personal ethics couldn't rationalize that behavior. On my property I make the rules and demand they be respected, I extend the same consideration to others.
     

    vmax

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    I see your point OP. It seems like a double standard.

    But think about this:
    In what light to you think of these gays forcing private businesses to comply with their wishes? Favorable or unfavorable?
    Do you think by extorting those business owners to provide them services it helps their cause to the straight community? I don't.
    I think they are activist fascist, radicals and it makes me dislike their lifestyle that much more.

    If gun owners started using the same tactics against business to force them to let us carry it would backfire unbelievably bad and be a black eye on all of us.
     

    Dash Riprock

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    Again, I don't wish for this to devolve into a debate on gay marriage but do you think the gays give a rip about the "light" in which their tactics make them look? They are getting everything they want and then some. They are transforming society in accordance with their vision and leaving a trail of destruction behind them, and they don't care. That's why they are winning. That's how the left gets its way. And make no mistake, this is really more about the left and its agenda than it is about gay marriage; gay marriage is just the latest vehicle the left has found to promote further erosion of traditional values. But that's for another thread.

    Think of it this way. Say you had to field a football team, and you put your 11 guys out there because that's what the rules say you do. The other side shows up with 12 and the referee does nothing about it. Now, you could be a purist and say "a football team consists of 11 players and I'm not going to violate the rules" and play on, getting your ass handed to you mildly at first. Then after a while the other team adds another player, and the referee does nothing. But you continue to hold fast to your belief that football teams should have 11 players, and you get your ass handed to you even worse. Finally the other side is up to 22 players, and the referees still doesn't do anything. At some point you have to do something different or your team is going to be obliterated. You can refuse to play anymore because this is not the game you signed up for, but this is not an option in the real world because the game doesn't end. You can demand the referees enforce the rules or else you go get some new referees, but then the new referees might turn out just as corrupt at the first ones, because they don't care about the rules either. At some point, you may be forced to recognize the reality of the situation and realize that in order to survive in this corrupt game, you have to violate the rules yourself so you go out and get more guys to at least make it a fair fight.

    I kinda think that's where we are with not just 30.06, but a lot of things. The rules are not being fairly enforced, the other side is making things up as they go along and the referees/courts are not only letting them get away with it, they're encouraging it. Something has to give. Our side - gun owners specifically but conservative minded people more generally - need to rethink how we play this game. It's fine to say we won't patronize businesses that don't respect the 2nd Amendment, but what do we do when Bloomberg or the Mothers Demand Action groups succeed in getting enough businesses posted that we no longer have the choice of, say, going to a non-posted grocery store. Whole Foods and Sprouts are already posted - if HEB and Randalls or god forbid Wal-Mart follow suit, I essentially won't have the option of carrying while grocery shopping, because there isn't anything else.

    Something has to give, folks. We can't go on this way. It doesn't work when only one side follows the rules.
     
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    txinvestigator

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    You cannot justify a wrong by pointing out other wrong.

    Forcing a business to host a gay wedding is wrong. That the government does it does not justify further eroding property property owner rights....
     

    Dash Riprock

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    Property rights are what separate us from communists.

    I won't venture down that slippery slope to impose my views on others because I don't have the right to.

    The government is completely out of control telling people how to use their own property.

    I don't disagree with you but again, the left* has been imposing its views on private property rights for a while now and getting away with it, especially as they pertain to businesses that are open to the public, and it's getting worse and worse. It has to be two way street or one side - our side - is going to get run over. What do we do? If we're the only ones willing to take the high road, we risk losing everything.



    *Yes, I know the right has gone along with some things but it's mainly the left that pushes this stuff
     
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