The NRA Isn't Changing Its Stance on the Terrorism Watchlist

[Bobk]

Just hours after presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump announced he would meet with the NRA to discuss "not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns," the organization gave its response: we'll meet Trump, but we're sticking to our guns.


"The NRA's position on this issue has not changed," said Chris W. Cox, the executive director of the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action, in a statement. "The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing." The group issued a similar statement in the wake of last year's terrorist attack in Paris................

"The NRA is instead focused on pushing for a way to remove people more easily from watchlists. "Due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed," the group wrote in the statement. The NRA argues that people on watchlists often wrongly end up there because of broad and secretive standards, and it's able to call on an unusual allies to help make that case. The ACLU and the Council on American Islamic Relations are two other prominent organizations that agree with the NRA's stance on civil liberties grounds."


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/nra-isnt-changing-its-stance-terrorism-watchlist

 

[easy rider]

Good! As much as I fight for my 2A rights, it's actually the Constitution as a whole I stand for.

 

[XinTX]

Disagree COMPLETELY with this. It takes nothing other than suspicion to be placed on the list. So then they can deny you your 2nd amendment right absent any due process. Then it's up to you, at YOUR expense, to sue to obtain the due process to get off the list. Keep in mind, the Tsarnaevs, the San Bernadino shooters, nor the Orlando shooters were on any watch list. And the Russians had explicitly warned the US about the Tsarnaev brothers. The Just Us Dept wants to whitewash a lot of people in their favored classes, but some in that same gov't advocate that the NRA is a "terrorist group". And to this day, the gov't still has not defined what a "terrorist" is.

So what happens when another administration comes along and thinks the NRA is a "terrorist" organization? So they put EVERY member on "the list". Heck, why stop there? Add in the 2AF, TSRA, and any other such organization. Members of shooting clubs. People on gun boards like this. Subscribers to Rush 24/7. Members of evangelical churches. Then take all those files and simply mark them "under investigation". When challenged on it, they can say "we have such a huge backlog of investigations, it's going to take time to clear them" and some judge will swallow that.

Or another way they could add people. The FISA "courts" (sic) have allowed the "3 hop" rule for surveillance. So everyone on their warrant list, the NSA/FBI/DHS can monitor their contacts, their contacts contacts, and their contacts, contacts, contacts. Someone ran the numbers based on the 3 degrees of separation, and it ended up being a highly substantial percentage of the population.

If you reasonably believe someone is engaging in terrorist activities, then go show the probable cause, get a warrant, investigate, and if needed prosecute. Otherwise it's just another way to constrict the ability of law abiding citizens to acquire firearms. Anyone believe this administration wouldn't abuse that? And keep in mind, there will be a LOT of hold overs who will remain buried in the alphabet agencies for years to come.

 

[seeker_two]

Disagree COMPLETELY with this. It takes nothing other than suspicion to be placed on the list. So then they can deny you your 2nd amendment right absent any due process. Then it's up to you, at YOUR expense, to sue to obtain the due process to get off the list. Keep in mind, the Tsarnaevs, the San Bernadino shooters, nor the Orlando shooters were on any watch list. And the Russians had explicitly warned the US about the Tsarnaev brothers. The Just Us Dept wants to whitewash a lot of people in their favored classes, but some in that same gov't advocate that the NRA is a "terrorist group". And to this day, the gov't still has not defined what a "terrorist" is.

So what happens when another administration comes along and thinks the NRA is a "terrorist" organization? So they put EVERY member on "the list". Heck, why stop there? Add in the 2AF, TSRA, and any other such organization. Members of shooting clubs. People on gun boards like this. Subscribers to Rush 24/7. Members of evangelical churches. Then take all those files and simply mark them "under investigation". When challenged on it, they can say "we have such a huge backlog of investigations, it's going to take time to clear them" and some judge will swallow that.

Or another way they could add people. The FISA "courts" (sic) have allowed the "3 hop" rule for surveillance. So everyone on their warrant list, the NSA/FBI/DHS can monitor their contacts, their contacts contacts, and their contacts, contacts, contacts. Someone ran the numbers based on the 3 degrees of separation, and it ended up being a highly substantial percentage of the population.

If you reasonably believe someone is engaging in terrorist activities, then go show the probable cause, get a warrant, investigate, and if needed prosecute. Otherwise it's just another way to constrict the ability of law abiding citizens to acquire firearms. Anyone believe this administration wouldn't abuse that? And keep in mind, there will be a LOT of hold overs who will remain buried in the alphabet agencies for years to come.

^^^This....in spades.

Where is the due process concerning getting put ON the list in the first place?

 

[Mreed911]

^^^This....in spades.

Where is the due process concerning getting put ON the list in the first place?

Lets be clear. There is no due process in getting a search warrant - there's no notice and no hearing. It's all based on probable cause that you fight after the fact.

It's the same with these lists. The problem is there's no due process AT ALL, which is the NRA's point.

I don't expect this to pass precisely because the Feds don't want these exposed to due process challenges which they WOULD if this goes to affect a constitutional right.

 

[locke_n_load]

I just want to know how long the investigation can take place and your ability to buy a firearm is on hold? A month? A year? A right delayed is a right denied. If they have evidence that someone is a terrorist, take them to court! Other than that, sale goes through.

 

[Eli]

Just remember, Ted Kennedy ended up on the list when he was still a standing Senator.

Eli

 

[easy rider]

Who knows? They may even have a gun forum list.

 

[Wyldman]

Hell, they have a list list.

Crush, kill, mangle, maim, destroy.

 

[XinTX]

And if they can use a "list" (which is secret by the way, because we're huntin' terrorists and stuff) to deny 2A rights, what other rights might they go after next? How about the voting rights of your political opponents right before an election? It wouldn't have to be permanent. Just do it right before early voting starts. By the time a case makes its way to court, the election is over.

And I have a HUGE problem with being able to have access (at MY expense of course) to due process after the fact. Not to mention, I'd have to hire a lawyer. And I'd be up against an adversary who had limitless funding and resources. So if the next POTUS wants to stop the sale of all firearms, just put everyone on "the list". Then fight it endlessly in court. By the time it made it to SCOTUS, the left would have a majority there anyway.

And "Probable Cause" is mentioned in the Constitution only as the justification for a search warrant. It is not the basis for denial of constitutional rights.

 

[Thegomezclan]

I wonder if the government has a watch list spreadsheet?

 

[Bobk]

Wikipedia has an interesting comment on due process and the second amendment:
"
Levels of scrutiny

When a law or other act of government is challenged as a violation of individual liberty under the due process clause, courts nowadays primarily use two forms of scrutiny, or judicial review, which is used by the Judicial Branch. This inquiry balances the importance of the governmental interest being served and the appropriateness of the government's method of implementation against the resulting infringement of individual rights. If the governmental action infringes upon a fundamental right, the highest level of review—strict scrutiny—is used.[SUP][39][/SUP] To pass strict scrutiny review, the law or act must be narrowly tailored to further a compelling government interest. Some of the courts are currently using the lower Standards of Review in 2nd Amendment cases and these opinions and orders are being upheld by the Circuit Courts of Appeal, i.e., the "lower" standard "intermediate" is being implemented to infringe upon this fundamental and individual right by the States and the Circuits are misapplying their standards and thus allowing the States to legislate and restrict the right to keep and bear arms to its citizens.

When the governmental restriction restricts liberty in a manner that does not implicate a fundamental right, rational basis review is used. Here a legitimate government interest is enough to pass this review. There is also a middle level of scrutiny, called intermediate scrutiny, but it is primarily used in Equal Protection cases rather than in Due Process cases. ”[SUP][40]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause

[/SUP]

 

[SA_Steve]

800,000 folks already on the list ?

Makes me laugh - some gov contractor company building the list must be getting paid per name.

 

[BRD@66]

I wonder if the government has a watch list spreadsheet?

I'm gonna say yes. And that's not the ONLY spreadsheet that you are on.