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The Witch Hunt Begins: Citizen Spy Network Targets Political Speech and Gun Owners

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    M. Sage

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    So what all these people with all this experience can't see that the towers fell at free fall speed, straight down after being hit by an aircraft.

    They don't see it because it doesn't happen. You're comparing the speed of a falling building to the speed of lightweight debris and dust falling through the air in those videos.

    Also can they explain how a building that wasn't even hit collapses??

    It collapsed because almost half the building was destroyed by a bunch of one of the towers falling on it. And then it burned. Ya think that having one of the world's largest buildings falling on top of it followed by an uncontrolled fire might cause something bad to happen? Hmmmm?

    Don't say fire because no steel structure has fallen due to fire.

    Straight-up bullshit claim. I can name an example from memory, and another fell into my lap with a Google search.

    Calif. road collapses after tanker fire - U.S. news - Life - msnbc.com
    http://michiganfireservice.com/tanker-fire-causes-collapse-of-overpass/381/

    Steel beams in those overpasses. Tankers full of fuel burned under them, causing the steel to fail and the structures to collapse.

    One other factor in the towers' collapse may have been the fact that each had a jetliner weighing nearly a quarter million pounds slammed into it at 500 or so miles an hour.

    That's right. A quarter million pounds. You load a 757 up with passengers, their shit and enough fuel to fly coast to coast (why do you think these flights were chosen!?) and they're heavy as hell.

    Let's calculate the impact energy of one of these planes. Let's assume they didn't take off at close to MTOW. Let's say they both weighed 200,000 lbs at impact. Let's also say they weren't moving that fast (they were fully capable of 600 MPH, stall is around 225, so they had to be going faster than that - flaps were up and controls get mushy as you approach stall speed). So we'll go 400 MPH. The impact energy is 1,069,700,000 ft lbs force.

    That's right, a billion fucking foot pounds. Do you think that might contribute to a structural failure!?

    What about the pentagon, the hole left by the so called 747 wasn't even big enough for a 747 to fit in. plus their were no parts left around.

    As noted before, 757. But yes... there were parts everywhere. There were parts inside the building. Why wasn't the hole that big? Unlike the towers, the Pentagon is hardened. It's made of thick reinforced concrete. Know what a 757 is made of? Aluminum and plastic for the most part. It's big, heavy and moving fast, but it's essentially a beer can.


    Our government has used many false flags, The Gulf of Tonkin and the U.S.S. Liberty. I may not know engineers, pilots and black-ops but I have read articles by people of those professions and many of them say it was a possible false flag. False Flags have been a key for Tyrannical Governments to take control.

    Yet somehow most of the articles written by people who know what they're talking about debunk these wild-assed theories that someone could somehow pull off what has to be the biggest, most complicated op in history without anybody talking or noticing.

    The fact that you rely on the "controlled implosion theory" tells me how little you've learned from those articles. Taking something the size of a house down would require several notebook pages worth of calculation of charge size and placement. Just using demo to open a door requires more math than most people not trained realize.

    When did work crews go in and pre-weaken the structure? How did people not notice that there were structural supports being taken out for months if not years before hand? How did they not notice the miles of wiring to the demo charges? How did they not notice walls being knocked out to place them? How did they not notice the heavy objects placed around charges for tamping? How did they not notice the army of workers needed to place all this stuff?

    And where are the members of this army of people who murdered the equivalent of a small town? There aren't that many borderline sociopaths out there. It's been ten years. Someone somewhere would have got sick of the nightmares and come forward to blow the lid. Many someones, actually.

    The funniest argument these idiots make when they try saying that it was demolition is that "byproducts of thermite" were found on site. Really? They found aluminum oxide and iron in the remains of a skyscraper!? No way! But that's not as retarded as they get. Thermite isn't really useful for cutting vertical supports. See, it burns and falls down as a super-hot liquid.

    Look at Hitler!!!

    Ok, for future reference, this isn't the kind of thing that wins arguments. It's actually looked down upon for good reason. Google "Godwin's Law."

    Beside the fact that it's pathetically predictable, this is an appeal to emotion, not part of a reasoned argument.

    These people stuffing your head with this crap? They know as little about it as you do. They're not your friends. They're lying to you. They're using you to further an agenda.

    Go do some serious research. Look at sources not involved in conspiracy or even counter-conspiracy.

    For future reference, a Youtube video made by a couple of misanthropic pothead college students isn't exactly going to be chock full of accurate information.

    ... interesting that they showed everybody this "truth" by an organization willing to murder 3000 people, but they're still walking around, isn't it? Only explanation I can come up with for that is that they're dead wrong.
    Gun Zone Deals
     

    SpikeSpiegel

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    They don't see it because it doesn't happen. You're comparing the speed of a falling building to the speed of lightweight debris and dust falling through the air in those videos.
    It's pretty obvious you can see the building at free fall speed.

    YouTube - 9/11 Archive Footage-South Tower collapsing

    It collapsed because almost half the building was destroyed by a bunch of one of the towers falling on it. And then it burned. Ya think that having one of the world's largest buildings falling on top of it followed by an uncontrolled fire might cause something bad to happen? Hmmmm?
    The two towers did not fall on building seven, it also fell straight down





    Steel beams in those overpasses. Tankers full of fuel burned under them, causing the steel to fail and the structures to collapse.

    One other factor in the towers' collapse may have been the fact that each had a jetliner weighing nearly a quarter million pounds slammed into it at 500 or so miles an hour.

    That's right. A quarter million pounds. You load a 757 up with passengers, their shit and enough fuel to fly coast to coast (why do you think these flights were chosen!?) and they're heavy as hell.

    Let's calculate the impact energy of one of these planes. Let's assume they didn't take off at close to MTOW. Let's say they both weighed 200,000 lbs at impact. Let's also say they weren't moving that fast (they were fully capable of 600 MPH, stall is around 225, so they had to be going faster than that - flaps were up and controls get mushy as you approach stall speed). So we'll go 400 MPH. The impact energy is 1,069,700,000 ft lbs force.

    That's right, a billion fucking foot pounds. Do you think that might contribute to a structural failure!?
    You also fail to realize that the WTC was incased in concrete. They are made to withstand an impact from an airplane. Do you not think the architects thought about the what if senario, what if a plain hit the fucking building?? I'm sure they did.

    As noted before, 757. But yes... there were parts everywhere. There were parts inside the building. Why wasn't the hole that big? Unlike the towers, the Pentagon is hardened. It's made of thick reinforced concrete. Know what a 757 is made of? Aluminum and plastic for the most part. It's big, heavy and moving fast, but it's essentially a beer can.
    [video]http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/Cnn%5B1%5D.Pentagon.Jamie.Mcintyre.swf[/video]

    But the WTC was also incased in concrete. Not as much as the pentigon though.

    The funniest argument these idiots make when they try saying that it was demolition is that "byproducts of thermite" were found on site. Really? They found aluminum oxide and iron in the remains of a skyscraper!? No way! But that's not as retarded as they get. Thermite isn't really useful for cutting vertical supports. See, it burns and falls down as a super-hot liquid.

    Actually it is quite useful.

    Ok, for future reference, this isn't the kind of thing that wins arguments. It's actually looked down upon for good reason. Google "Godwin's Law."

    Beside the fact that it's pathetically predictable, this is an appeal to emotion, not part of a reasoned argument.

    These people stuffing your head with this crap? They know as little about it as you do. They're not your friends. They're lying to you. They're using you to further an agenda.

    Go do some serious research. Look at sources not involved in conspiracy or even counter-conspiracy.

    For future reference, a Youtube video made by a couple of misanthropic pothead college students isn't exactly going to be chock full of accurate information.
    This prolly the funniest thing i have heard. I will choose my friends, I don't need you to tell me how I should pick and choose my friends. Most of my friends actually agree with me or are the ones who told me about this stuff. And I know a couple of them a lot more than I know you, and I know if Shit Hits The Fan, I would trust them over you any day of the week.

    ... interesting that they showed everybody this "truth" by an organization willing to murder 3000 people, but they're still walking around, isn't it? Only explanation I can come up with for that is that they're dead wrong.
    You obviously don't know history very well

    I do my own serious research thank you very much.
     

    Wolfwood

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    spike, look up my post in the 'another polite response needed' thread.
    seems relevant to me.
     

    Vance

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    One other factor in the towers' collapse may have been the fact that each had a jetliner weighing nearly a quarter million pounds slammed into it at 500 or so miles an hour.

    That's right. A quarter million pounds. You load a 757 up with passengers, their shit and enough fuel to fly coast to coast (why do you think these flights were chosen!?) and they're heavy as hell.

    Let's calculate the impact energy of one of these planes. Let's assume they didn't take off at close to MTOW. Let's say they both weighed 200,000 lbs at impact. Let's also say they weren't moving that fast (they were fully capable of 600 MPH, stall is around 225, so they had to be going faster than that - flaps were up and controls get mushy as you approach stall speed). So we'll go 400 MPH. The impact energy is 1,069,700,000 ft lbs force.

    That's right, a billion fucking foot pounds. Do you think that might contribute to a structural failure!?

    Just to help Sage out with the numbers.
    According the our (work) database, some quick numbers on the B757/200 are: Max fuel load: 34,200lbs...MTOW: (Max Takeoff Weight) 108,862LBS ... so yeah .. there's enough there to take out most anything, not including, as he said, the velocity at which they hit.
     

    Rum Runner

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    I tried to listen to the initial video, but he goes so far off into nutville around 11:51 that I just shut it off as a waste of time.

    As for 911. For everyone who has a theory or video proving conspiracy, there are others debunking that, then debunking the debunkers, etc. Get over it.
     

    SpikeSpiegel

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    Just to help Sage out with the numbers.
    According the our (work) database, some quick numbers on the B757/200 are: Max fuel load: 34,200lbs...MTOW: (Max Takeoff Weight) 108,862LBS ... so yeah .. there's enough there to take out most anything, not including, as he said, the velocity at which they hit.

    Ok, but you have to look at the physics. What happens when something hits something else. The transfer of energy. Anyway who cares what I think right. Im just have a low post count right???

    I tried to listen to the initial video, but he goes so far off into nutville around 11:51 that I just shut it off as a waste of time.

    As for 911. For everyone who has a theory or video proving conspiracy, there are others debunking that, then debunking the debunkers, etc. Get over it.

    ok, thats your opinion but all I do is ask you, look around and look out. When you buy ammo and guns now (say like walmart), you will prolly be thought of as a terrorist . I may sound like a nut but its true.

    As for 9/11, If it was an inside job or not, everyone would have to agree that many Americans are not getting the whole truth. None of the Families have the full truth. The first responders are dieing because they were the ones who risked their lifes to help people out and were not simply told of the hazards. Our own Government wont even help the Patriots that live in this country. You don't have to serve in the military to be an American hero or a Patriot. When it comes to the American people, and I see people suffering and no one is helping them, then I start to question why.

    Im probably going to miss some funny BS in this thread but im done with the parrot in here so hes going on ignore.

    Ok, fine with me. At least you consider me a patriot. I would rather stick up for the American People then stick up for the Government any day. This is America, so why is it that when someone questions the Government they are considered a loon or a nut?? When our founding fathers thought that the American people should have the right to do so. The whole reason why the Constitution was created, so we can have those rights.
     

    Texas1911

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    Ok, but you have to look at the physics. What happens when something hits something else. The transfer of energy. Anyway who cares what I think right. Im just have a low post count right???

    Engineers design buildings with a worst case scenario in play. The buildings weren't designed for a solid impact at speed by a commercial jet liner. Why? Because a jet liner would be in evasive maneuvers at a much lower speed. You can't design the building for every scenario, at some point you have to make cuts for the sake of building costs and ease of construction. The heavier the materials, the greater the foundation, and every floor beneath would require more reinforcement.

    What caused the collapse was simple ... heat. The beams did not melt, the temperature was too low for that, but the beams did have three issues. First, the increase in load. Secondly, shear loads due to uneven loading. Both of which were easy to design for in the building, most beams are sized to take upwards of 50% more stress than they need to. However, the third was the kicker, the temperature rose high enough to fatigue the metal beams which greatly lowers their ability to hold weight. They finally succumbed to the weight and voila, collapse. You'd get a cascading effect in the beams due to their uniformity and the building would generally drop straight down due to inertia.

    The main argument against that I hear is heat ... jet fuel doesn't burn that hot, not hot enough to melt the steel. Unfortunately these people would never make a good blacksmith back in the medieval era. You know, back in the days where they hammer formed iron and steel using blown furnaces powered by coal and other low temperature sources. The fallacy is this, heat is energy, it's something that can be stored ... the measure in how well a material releases heat energy is known as thermal conductivity. Steel in general is not a very good conductor. What that means is the fire is producing temperatures of 500 - 600 degrees, which is energy. It continues to convert the hydrocarbons into energy, and that energy has to disapate ... some of it goes into the air, some of it goes into the steel beams. The result of this is the beams continue to heat up beyond the temperature of the source. Anyone that lives in Texas can tell you that a steel hood in the summer is hotter than hades, it might be 160 degs., but the air temp is only 100 degs.
     

    SpikeSpiegel

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    Engineers design buildings with a worst case scenario in play. The buildings weren't designed for a solid impact at speed by a commercial jet liner. Why? Because a jet liner would be in evasive maneuvers at a much lower speed. You can't design the building for every scenario, at some point you have to make cuts for the sake of building costs and ease of construction. The heavier the materials, the greater the foundation, and every floor beneath would require more reinforcement.

    What caused the collapse was simple ... heat. The beams did not melt, the temperature was too low for that, but the beams did have three issues. First, the increase in load. Secondly, shear loads due to uneven loading. Both of which were easy to design for in the building, most beams are sized to take upwards of 50% more stress than they need to. However, the third was the kicker, the temperature rose high enough to fatigue the metal beams which greatly lowers their ability to hold weight. They finally succumbed to the weight and voila, collapse. You'd get a cascading effect in the beams due to their uniformity and the building would generally drop straight down due to inertia.

    The main argument against that I hear is heat ... jet fuel doesn't burn that hot, not hot enough to melt the steel. Unfortunately these people would never make a good blacksmith back in the medieval era. You know, back in the days where they hammer formed iron and steel using blown furnaces powered by coal and other low temperature sources. The fallacy is this, heat is energy, it's something that can be stored ... the measure in how well a material releases heat energy is known as thermal conductivity. Steel in general is not a very good conductor. What that means is the fire is producing temperatures of 500 - 600 degrees, which is energy. It continues to convert the hydrocarbons into energy, and that energy has to disapate ... some of it goes into the air, some of it goes into the steel beams. The result of this is the beams continue to heat up beyond the temperature of the source. Anyone that lives in Texas can tell you that a steel hood in the summer is hotter than hades, it might be 160 degs., but the air temp is only 100 degs.


    No steel structure has collapsed due to fire. The planes although heavy are actually pretty light, and most of the cabin would of been destroyed on the impact of the concrete wall.

    Jack Skilling, head structural engineer, said in 93 "Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there."

    Then here is some other data.
    WTC Molten Steel - The 9/11 Smoking Gun

    The planes are just the small picture, much of the harm is going to many of the first responders and the Americans who are constracting cancer due to breathing in the air after the towers collapsed. Asbestos is not something you want to be around. They hardly get any help
     

    Texas1911

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    Nothing in that rebuttal has anything to do with the fact that the building dropped as a result of steel thermal fatigue. The steel did not melt, it simply got soft. If anything, it supports my argument.

    The steel structure fell as a result of significant structural damage and fire, it was multifaceted. The weight of the plane did not help things. When you slam a 250,000 lb. object into a structure it does damage, alot of it.

    Also, it would not be the first time an engineer was not correct.
     
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