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    tomharkness

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    Looking for individuals that want to get together in the Georgetown -Florance area and do some training and practice.

    I am a Retired Army Medic/Nurse, professional firefighter, and X-Military Police. I have training in the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response (active shooter) program as well as much more. I am a certified NRA pistol instructor and licensed by the Texas Private Security Bureau in Firearms and Level III Security Officer training, as well as, a member of the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association.

    I am looking for individuals that want to get together and socialize about these subjects. Also looking for friends that share the same interest in shooting, advanced shooting, and much more.
    Texas SOT
     

    bikerbill

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    It sounds like a great idea; what range do you use? I live over in Lago Vista and usually shoot at Eagle Peak, but all you can do there is poke holes in paper ...
     

    tomharkness

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    Guys, I am open for suggestions. We don't even need to bring guns. I'm just tired of hearing stupid liberals from the Austin area that refuse to listen. I want to spend time around like minded people that believe in that Memorandum of understanding we call the Constitution..... you know, that piece of lambskin that the liberals all think is a suicide pact.

    I shoot at Eagle Peak sometimes, I shoot at Astros sometimes, and sometimes even Stan's.... if the weather is bad, I will go to Red's in Pflugerville or South Austin.

    I ride a 1100cc Honda Shadow and would not mind just about any trip within 100 miles. Even Eagle Peak and Astro's is about 30 miles each for me. Just get out a map and start looking at ranges that are close to you and put them up on the site. Then everyone can start looking at what is most available for them. We should, at least, come up with a "Best Place" area to get together.

    Even if we don't bring our guns, we should, at least, get together and talk about upcoming events. I want to talk about: NRA, Texas State Laws, U.S. Laws, and some other things.

    Do you know the difference between a conservative and a liberal? A conservative will tell you what he thinks, why he thinks that way and why he thinks he is right for thinking that way...... a liberal will tell you what you think, why you think that way and how he knows that you are wrong for thinking that way.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    I don't mind meeting anywhere and doing anything. If it's at the range that's fine with me, or just hanging out talking is fine too. One thing I will have to say is I would much rather not spend any money at Eagle Peak. The only time I've been there was with a CHL class, and the manager got into a childish confrontation with our instructor. It was extremely unprofessional, plus they are very strict there. I would rather not go back, and I really dislike ranges that won't allow a little room for stuff like rapid fire, etc. I went to Astro's last weekend and it seemed like a decent place.
     

    tomharkness

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    Astros is nice and I like the people there. I like the little office that they have and the seats out front. They also have descent restroom facilities. However, we would need to bring our own chairs and maybe a canopy to sit under if the sun gets too hot.

    First, I need to go out and talk with the owner at Astros and see if he has any problems with a big get-together. Let me see what they say and get back to everyone.

    I would love to see military, civilians, Mom’s, Dads, and anyone else with a belief in the system that our forefathers designed and our politicians are so desperate to destroy. We could talk about shooting techniques and then go and practice them.

    Sometimes, what I will do is bring plastic, toy handguns that look real (but with the red tip) to demonstrate training procedures. I love airsoft guns for that.

    I think that getting a CHL is not enough. I think that people with a CHL should also practice scenarios and advanced techniques in order to help prepare for the most extreme possibilities.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    I took a CHL class finally. I still need to turn in the paperwork but am getting there at least. Personally, I look at it from the perspective that, I consider myself to be a lifelong student when it comes to proficiency with firearms and self defense in general. I won't ever feel there is a point I've reached that is "enough". I try to soak up every piece of education and training I can on the subject. I know just enough now to know that I don't know nearly enough and have plenty to learn.

    One thing I really want to start doing is some force on force training as I'm aware of the excellent and unique opportunity it provides that you really can't get doing anything else. Airsoft guns make that easy, and I have a few I intend to use for that purpose eventually.

    I have wanted to start participating in some IDPA matches for awhile now too. I think it would be great to get out and experience some shooting on the move and possibly on some courses structured in a somewhat realistic manner. One thing I am realizing though is that even IDPA has become a bit more of a "gaming" organization. Personally there are some beliefs I have about certain things that have made me realize I wouldn't be competitive at IDPA from the gaming sense. Though I'd be there for the experience as opposed to trying to win a trophy. The only thing I've seen so far about IDPA that I can't stand is how you have to go hammer down after showing clear. To me that is a very BAD habit to ingrain in someone's subconscious through many, many repetitions. I don't want to develop on unconscious affinity for going "hammer down" after everything I do with a firearm. ;) Sigs have a decocker and after I've just showed someone I'm clear, mag is out or empty, what's the point. ;)
     

    tomharkness

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    IDPA is fun, but gets way too competitive. Pretty soon, you have a complete separation of the CHL people that want to practice real life scenarios and the $2800 per gun - extreme Military/Law Enforcement Close Order Combat enthusiast. Before you know it, the regular people get bored and discourage and decide to find something more interesting to do for the day. What I am looking to start here is where CHL and Home Defense people get together and talk about different ideas… and try different techniques in a controlled and safe environment. I want to practice starting from a chair, standing up, turning, finding your target, and then engaging safely.

    When I was Military Police, I was tops in my class for shooting. But when my Tactical Police Instructor had me run around the field with a 50 pound weight, fight someone my same size for two minutes, and then go to the firing line… draw my pistol and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds… My shot-group was the equivalent of a 4 year old picking his nose while shooting. I was lucky that I hit the paper…. And none of my shots hit the actual target. When I was instructed to lie down on the ground, on my back, and shoot the target…. I shot the wrong target.

    The short of this story is this: When someone starts shooting at you and you know that your life is about to end, the rules change and people make mistakes. Keeping your cool is all talk until the S*** starts flying. Then all bets are off and Murphy’s Law kicks in….. “No Operations Plan Survives First Contact Intact”.

    As for the CHL, I don’t think anyone should carry a CCF (Conceal Carry Firearm [NRA discourages the use of the word “weapon”]) that cost more than $400. If you ever have to use your firearm for self defense, you will lose that firearm to the local Law Enforcement. It is immediately taken as evidence for the investigation of what happened. Depending on what part of Texas you are in it could take anywhere from 2 months to 200 years before you will ever see it again. Even if you are in the right and completely justified, if you use a firearm in the City of Austin, Texas, you may never see that firearm again. The Liberal Judges in Austin don’t care what is right or wrong, they only care about making sure that you put as much of your income into their system as they can get.

    If you have $2800 to spend on a firearm, think about getting Eight Smith and Wesson Sigma, Kel-tec P-11, and/or Kimber handguns instead. That way, when the brothers, uncles, and friends of the thug that you shot comes after you to get even… you can have enough backup to make sure the entire problem is fixed. Also consider buying all your firearms in the same caliber. That way the ammo is generic to all your firearms. Even my carbine is 9mm…. not that I think 9mm is the best, only that I prefer 9mm.

    Today is Wednesday and I am off work. I will be driving up to Astros to talk with the owner about our little meet and greet. Check back soon for updates.
     

    fm2

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    Tom said:
    I think that getting a CHL is not enough. I think that people with a CHL should also practice scenarios and advanced techniques in order to help prepare for the most extreme possibilities.

    I agree.


    I like the ASP or Blue ring training guns.

    Here's another option to a "training gun"
    Training Barrel :: Tactical Lights & Accessories :: Blade-Tech Industries

    Tom said:
    What I am looking to start here is where CHL and Home Defense people get together and talk about different ideas… and try different techniques in a controlled and safe environment. I want to practice starting from a chair, standing up, turning, finding your target, and then engaging safely

    That's a good idea. I was part of an IDPA practice group that met weekly when IDPA was new. Some people were interested in their score, but most were interested in shooting it clean & tactically sound.
    We did self defense scenarios, found gun scenarios, home invasion scenarios, and discussed gear etc... while we were waiting for our turn on the line. We leaned a lot about carry guns, method of carry, tactics, and gear, by trying things out & AAR's.
     

    TAZ

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    Sounds like a good idea. I'm in Round Rock and tens to do most of my shooting at either the Temple Gun Club or the Austin Rifle Club. Both are a pretty decent drive and are private Never been to Astos, so I have no clue, but am willing to give it a whirl.

    I would love to do more training in everything from basic marksmanship to more advanced stuff. I have really gotten out of the training rhythm lately and its annoying me as my shooting skills are declining. Dry fire just aint cutting it anymore.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    At the last TGT forum event we had at Shiloh in Houston, I got to try sort of a small and short IDPA course setup by Dale Hunnicut. The course would have been considered about as rudimentary as could be to anyone that regularly participates in any type of competition matches, though it was intended to be sort of a beginner's preview of what it's like. Anyways, I have spent countless man hours reading every piece of knowledge I could on the subject of firearms and self defense, shooting on the move, etc. So going into it, I knew that my accuracy was going to suffer quite a bit, and that things generally weren't going to turn out as intended. I was a bit surprised to say the least though as my accuracy was quite a bit worse than I would have expected. First target was directly in front at 12 'o clock and at 5-7yds, second target was to the left and forward another 5yds or so, then a "barricade" to the left and foreward of that, and then two more targets on the left side of the barricade staggered in the opposite manner. So basically they were aligned in sort of an inverted triangle, forcing you to have to make at a 45 degree angle to the rear towards the barricade. Anyways, simple course right? Like 4 targets and at no more than 10yds? WRONG, my groupings were nearly all like 1ft apart on the first run and were practically touching opposite sides of I think a standard B27 target. I knew accuracy was going to suffer, especially not having the experience, but that was a real eye opener to me. I shudder to think of how horrible other people out there would do that own self defense firearms but don't train, and don't even bother to at least get a handle on the "book smarts" side of things. I'm not doing too bad in the book smarts area, but the personal experience area (or lack thereof rather) is kicking my butt! ;)
     

    htxred

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    IDPA is fun, but gets way too competitive. Pretty soon, you have a complete separation of the CHL people that want to practice real life scenarios and the $2800 per gun - extreme Military/Law Enforcement Close Order Combat enthusiast. Before you know it, the regular people get bored and discourage and decide to find something more interesting to do for the day. What I am looking to start here is where CHL and Home Defense people get together and talk about different ideas… and try different techniques in a controlled and safe environment. I want to practice starting from a chair, standing up, turning, finding your target, and then engaging safely.

    When I was Military Police, I was tops in my class for shooting. But when my Tactical Police Instructor had me run around the field with a 50 pound weight, fight someone my same size for two minutes, and then go to the firing line… draw my pistol and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds… My shot-group was the equivalent of a 4 year old picking his nose while shooting. I was lucky that I hit the paper…. And none of my shots hit the actual target. When I was instructed to lie down on the ground, on my back, and shoot the target…. I shot the wrong target.

    The short of this story is this: When someone starts shooting at you and you know that your life is about to end, the rules change and people make mistakes. Keeping your cool is all talk until the S*** starts flying. Then all bets are off and Murphy’s Law kicks in….. “No Operations Plan Survives First Contact Intact”.

    As for the CHL, I don’t think anyone should carry a CCF (Conceal Carry Firearm [NRA discourages the use of the word “weapon”]) that cost more than $400. If you ever have to use your firearm for self defense, you will lose that firearm to the local Law Enforcement. It is immediately taken as evidence for the investigation of what happened. Depending on what part of Texas you are in it could take anywhere from 2 months to 200 years before you will ever see it again. Even if you are in the right and completely justified, if you use a firearm in the City of Austin, Texas, you may never see that firearm again. The Liberal Judges in Austin don’t care what is right or wrong, they only care about making sure that you put as much of your income into their system as they can get.

    If you have $2800 to spend on a firearm, think about getting Eight Smith and Wesson Sigma, Kel-tec P-11, and/or Kimber handguns instead. That way, when the brothers, uncles, and friends of the thug that you shot comes after you to get even… you can have enough backup to make sure the entire problem is fixed. Also consider buying all your firearms in the same caliber. That way the ammo is generic to all your firearms. Even my carbine is 9mm…. not that I think 9mm is the best, only that I prefer 9mm.

    Today is Wednesday and I am off work. I will be driving up to Astros to talk with the owner about our little meet and greet. Check back soon for updates.
    are you being serious or sarcastic? you're suggesting that someone buy a cheaper more expendable firearm to protect themselves with because of the possible confiscation from local law enforcement?
     

    tomharkness

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    Just the Facts

    are you being serious or sarcastic? you're suggesting that someone buy a cheaper more expendable firearm to protect themselves with because of the possible confiscation from local law enforcement?

    No, I am not "Suggesting" a cheaper firearm because of the "Possible Confiscation". I AM TELLING YOU THAT YOU WILL HAVE THAT FIREARM CONFISCATED!!!! and the more expensive it is, the more likely it will be lost in the system. If you actually shoot at someone within a City Limits or actually shoot someone and there is evidence of blood, then the firearm must be taken for the investigation.

    1. I shoot better with my Kel-Tec than my CHL instructor did with his STI.
    2. It is not the Gun that makes the marksman any more than the idea that Guns kill people. It is the person using the firearm.
    3. I don't care how expensive or reliable your handgun is, if you have never fired more than 5 rounds through it... don't expect too much positive.
    4. My step-son can out shoot me with his Hi-Point 9mm.... and that thing looks goofy!!!

    There are people in Austin and Houston that have used firearms for self-defense and are still looking for those firearms. However, here in Georgetown, an elderly woman used a handgun in self defense and 2 months later the Sheriffs Dept mailed the gun back to her by U.S. Mail (NOTE: it is a federal crime to mail a firearm by U.S. Mail).
     

    tomharkness

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    I went to Astros and talked with the owner. They were in the process of closing the range for "Scheduled Repairs". I had the opportunity to talk with him for a few minutes and he indicated that he thought it was a "GREAT IDEA". In fact, he had several people that he believed would benefit from a get-to-gether like that.

    I explained that my focus was to get people together and talk about ideas, scenarios, and… more to the point, what to do after you pull the trigger in a “worse case scenario”.

    I teach a class in “Peelian Principles” and I am a State Firearms Instructor with the TPSB. So I train Security Officers.

    He was under the impression that I was going to charge for this class, but I that is not my intention. I am just looking for people to come together and socialize about guns, self defense, Texas State Law, and what needs to be done to keep from becoming a criminal just because you want to protect yourself and family.

    BOTTOM LINE: Astros is ok by the owner as long as we don’t abuse the previlage.
    Astros is located at N30.84169 W97.90460 or 14R PV 04749 12571 for you military folks. If you put those coordinates into google maps you can get a street view of the entrance.

    Now all we need is a time and date. Any suggestions: I think Valentines day is out as we need to be with family. So, we need to focus on sometime after the first of April.
     

    htxred

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    im sorry, i didnt realize you train security officers.. i want to be the first to thank you for doing your part in keeping our malls and Target and Walmart stores safe across america.
     

    shilohshooters

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    Wow. Sigma's and Kel-tec's instead of reliable firearms due to the minimal possibility of confiscation if ever used in self defense. I know that there are people out there that own these guns, many times because that is all they can afford, but too many times because the salesman is an idiot. Crappy gun apologists rise, because I am about to piss on your parade. I see just about every gun out there being shot by either gender and all body types. I watch hundreds of shooters every week and give instruction daily with many different firearms. Sigma's, Kel-Tec's, and Bersa's are crap. We see problems with these EVERY DAY! Whether the problem is major or small, they are still problematic and should not be relied upon as a carry pistol unless there is no other option. What is the point of carrying a gun that you can't rely on 100%? Would you buy a cheap parachute if you were going skydiving? Spend the money to save your life or don't spend the money and die. I know, I know, your Sigma and Hi-point have never failed on you and they are ultra reliable, blah, blah, blah, blah. Either you got the magical Hi-Point or you are full of crap. Call me a gun snob, I don't care, but I know what functions and what doesn't. I would rather fight with a taser than a Sigma or Kel-Tec. The fact is I wouldn't even let my mother in law carry one of your guns. Buying and relying on cheap guns on anticipation of the .0001% chance that your gun gets confiscated for self defense is ridiculous. And you are an instructor? Stop putting people on the streets with these guns, you are doing no one a favor. Spend the money once on a great gun, and I'm not talking a $2800 racer, and you won't kick yourself in the ass when you need it. It only hurts once to buy right and buy reliable. My life is definitely worth it. How much is your life worth? Why discount shop when your life is on the line! I apologize if I offended anyone, I just get pissed off at those who preach the gospel of Sigma's, Kel-Tec's and the like. It's these people that talk newbies and beginner's into this crap because they don't know any better! I see them every day and from what I VISUALLY SEE EVERY SINGLE DAY I choose not to sell them...BECAUSE THEY ARE CRAP!!!
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Well I think one thing we can agree on is that a Glock should be a consideration for self defense regardless of what concerns someone may have. They aren't too expensive. They aren't particularly "beautiful" or unique in as much as there are millions just like them so you can easily find one just like it should you happen to "lose" said gun for whatever reason. They are about as reliable as it gets, so much so that you can just treat them like a lawnmower and it doesn't matter they just keep working.

    Honestly, I would say that worrying about indefinite confiscation after a self defense shooting should be the absolute last thing to worry about. Number one is being able to survive. Number two is having the proper tools to make sure you can survive. I would say number three is insuring those tools are reliable and dependable to get the job done. If your gun collects dust in the back of some evidence room, never to be seen again, that sucks but at least you will hopefully still be alive which is all that really matters IMO. That being said, I'm not exactly in a rush to go buy a Sport Group H&K P9S Target or Sig P210 Heavy Frame Long Slide for self defense, as that's just common sense. ;)
     

    tomharkness

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    Htexred: As for making Target Stores, WalMarts, and Malls safe… please note that I teach the Level III Security Officers Course and those level officers are rarely (if ever) employed by those businesses as they do not want the liability of an armed security officer. If being an instructor in that field makes you wary of my credentials, please note that I have much more. Maybe we can discuss those whenever we get together to socialize.

    Shilohshooter: I feel your frustration Sir. But, Sigma (Smith and Wesson), Kel-Tec, and Bersa are not Crap! These companies go through great lengths to make a safe and reliable firearm. They might not be to your standards, but that does not make them bad for other people. To each his/her own? I heard the same song and dance from one of my fellow CHL Instructors and every time we go shooting together (him with his $2800 STI), I always out-shoot him on the range. As a matter of fact, I actually scored high in a IDPA challenge. Again, it is not the gun so much as it is the person using the firearm. You are welcome to be a “Gun Snob”, but I do not believe that it is appropriate to be so verbally slanderous of these companies. Let others make their own decision as to the type, size, make, and model of handgun they need for the purpose that they need it for. No need to act like a liberal democrat on this forum.

    Sig-Fiend: I love my Sig and my Glock and my Ruger. I highly recommend them for good reliable guns. However, I have done very well with my Kel-Tec and love what it has provided for me. I would more likely use my Ruger for home defense than any of the others, but for my CCW, I use my Kel-Tec. Shiloshooter would probably not believe me if I said that I had never had a problem with my Kel-Tec, but it is true. Still, I have only put about 1000 rounds through that particular handgun. I have put much more through my Ruger. The oddly heavy trigger pull of the Kel-Tec (about 10 to 15 pounds) is a bit too much, but does not really cause any problem for me in shooting scenarios. Also, practice with the Kel-Tec makes shooting the Ruger so much easier.

    Bottom Line: Each person has to find their own firearm. Some need a Revolver while others need a Simi Auto. Some need small while others need big. The longer the barrel and the heavier the firearm, the more accurate at great distances. However, at distances of 2 or 3 feet, just about any firearm will do. Don't let the "Gun Snobs" talk you into buying one gun where you could buy two, three, or more. Just make sure that you get one that you like and practice a lot.


    ADDENDUM: Just noted that htexred and shilohshooter both share a common threat... both from the Shiloh Shooting Range. As a matter of fact, I had the unique opportunity to spend the day at the Shiloh Range in Houston just this last week. It was nice and they run a pretty efficient show there; Very professional and organized on the firing line. However, the prices for firearms, ammo, and other things for sale I found questionable. This leads me to believe that the comments listed above may well be bias. I, too, would probably not recommend anyone purchase a firearm that I am not selling. However, I don’t sell guns... I teach.
     
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