Transport of relative's rifle from TX to NJ

[Bithabus]

Not legally.

An out-of-state FFL is not registered with NJ and does not have the forms required to legally execute the sale.

I think you are confusing requirements placed on NJ FFLs with requirements placed on NJ buyers. An FFL in NJ is required to submit paperwork to the Superintendent, but there is no requirement that an individual register his long gun. This is not a condition of sale, delivery or receipt: it is a condition of being an FFL holder in NJ. A dealer outside of NJ is not required to follow NJ laws.

These are the conditions of buying a long gun in NJ:

13:54-3.12 Requirements for sale of rifle, shotgun, antique cannon or receiver
Every purchaser, other than a licensed or registered retail or wholesale dealer or manufacturer, or law enforcement
agency as provided by this chapter, must present a valid firearms purchaser identification card to the dealer who is
required to confirm the identity of the purchaser. The purchaser must also sign a certificate of eligibility (NJSP 634),
filled out by the dealer or his licensed employee, for each rifle, shotgun, antique cannon or receiver purchased. The
certificate shall indicate that the purchaser presently complies with all of the requirements for obtaining an identification
card, and shall set forth the purchaser's name, address and identification card number. The certificate shall be retained
by the dealer. Prior to completing the sale or transfer of a rifle, shotgun, or receiver, the retail dealer shall initiate a NICS
check with the Division of State Police.

The OP can bring his FID and a certificate of eligibility to a Texas FFL holder, and the Texas dealer will place copies with the 4473. The dealer will also conduct a background check with NICS.

 

[Bithabus]

Does not mean anything. Most FFLs do not know the law in this matter.

I am a Texas FFL, and I worked for a NJ FFL years ago.

I know you are a Texas FFL. Didn't know you worked in Jersey.

 

[Renegade]

I know you are a Texas FFL. Didn't know you worked in Jersey.

It was a long time ago. Maybe things have changed. I do remember the memos coming down from SUPT/NJSP about this and it was a no-go at the time. Perhaps NJ has changed its own state laws (which only allowed contiguous state sales, to all 50 states, to get the FOPA benefits, but they did not change their laws for most other FOPA gains.)

I guess it is possible for the NJ/buyer to bring his own forms. Unlike 20+ years ago, those forms are easy to get off the web these days.

At the end of the day, the dealer is on the hook. Most FFLS are not going to make sales to out-of-state residents based on what the buyer says is legal and the buyer supplying the forms, nor will they know the laws of all 50 states, or care to look them up in order to close 1 22LR transfer every decade.

 

[Bithabus]

At the end of the day, the dealer is on the hook. Most FFLS are not going to make sales to out-of-state residents based on what the buyer says is legal and the buyer supplying the forms, nor will they know the laws of all 50 states, or care to look them up in order to close 1 22LR transfer every decade.

I agree. I expect a sale to a NJ resident would be an especially difficult issue, as evidenced by this thread. Everyone seems to agree the best way to avoid BS is to ship to a dealer in NJ.

 

[zomborama]

This what I found on NJ law. Btw, the contiguous state provision was repealed 30 years ago.


1. Handgun purchases by
....A. NJ resident from
........(1) NJ dealer = NICS check with a P2P and Photo ID
........(2) NJ resident = face to face with a P2P with Photo ID suggested
........(3) Out-of-state dealer = must be transferred through NJ dealer - Refer 1A(1)
........(4) Out-of-state resident = must be transferred through NJ dealer - Refer 1A(1)
....B. Out-of-state resident from
........(1) NJ dealer = must be transferred through buyer's home state dealer
........(2) NJ resident = must be transferred through buyer's home state dealer

2. Long gun purchases by
....A. NJ resident from
........(1) NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID
........(2) NJ resident = face to face with a FPID, COE with Photo ID suggested
........(3) Out-of-state dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID
........(4) Out-of-state resident = must be transferred through
............a. NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID or
............b. Out-of-state dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID
....B. Non-resident from
........(1) NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID
........(2) NJ resident = must be transferred through
............a. NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID or
............b. Out-of-state dealer = consult buyer's home state laws


Quote:
NJ = "New Jersey"
NICS = "National Instant Criminal Background Check System"
P2P = "Permit to Purchase a Handgun and Form of Register"
ID = "Identification"
FPID = "State of NJ Firearms Purchaser IDENTIFICATION CARD"
COE = "Certificate of Eligibility"

 

[Renegade]

This what I found on NJ law. Btw, the contiguous state provision was repealed 30 years ago.

Yes, the COE is the issue since few dealers outside of the NJ area have them, but I guess the NJ resident could bring it and maybe convince the FFL it was GTG.

The contiguous state provision in NJ was definitely not repealed 30 years ago. FOPA86 only repealed it 26 years ago, when NJ repealed theirs' I do not know, I had escaped by then.

Oddly Texas only repealed their contiguous state provision 2 years ago, though it was moot since it was permissive and not restrictive.

 

[Eli]

The problem is entirely NJ state law. Keep in mind that NJ is the *only* state that does not allow the Civilian Marksmanship Program to ship directly - they must go through FFL dealers!
The interstate transfer is not an issue, gifts & inheritances aren't 'interstate commerce' so they're unrestricted.
I would find a dealer in NJ and ship it. The TSA and airline are entirely non-issues.

Eli

 

[zomborama]

I think you're right. Shipping it a dealer would simplify things without getting a TX FFL paranoid about NJ law. Even in Jersey City, I feel like we have far more rights than someone just across the river in Manhattan or Brooklyn. I know everyone in the US considers gun-owning a right of every citizen, but with 13 million people in a small geographic area with a high proportion of violent crime, we've been made to consider it more of a privilege.

 

[ii]

I think you're right. Shipping it a dealer would simplify things without getting a TX FFL paranoid about NJ law. Even in Jersey City, I feel like we have far more rights than someone just across the river in Manhattan or Brooklyn. I know everyone in the US considers gun-owning a right of every citizen, but with 13 million people in a small geographic area with a high proportion of violent crime, we've been made to consider it more of a privilege.

Page 312-327 will let you know how New Jersey deals with firearms (15 pages)
Page 465-467 will let you know how Texas deals with firearms (3 pages)
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-2011/2009-30th-edition.pdf

Best of luck!

 

[Randman]

It's a shame it wasn't a gun you'd loaned to him and are now bringing it back.

It's absolutely insane to go through this much BS for a cotton-pickin' .22 rifle.

Loud and clear... Like a blinking neon sign.... Blink... Blink.... Blink....

 

[zomborama]

So, as a follow up. Over Christmas, I took the rifle to a gun shop in Austin with my brother in law and mentioned that I wanted to transfer the "title" of the rifle from my brother-in-law to me or whatever the equivalent was for doing that legally and take it with me back to NJ. I mentioned the Certificate of Eligibility required for NJ. He downloaded the form and laughed about the part where it mentioned that it was required for black powder and BB rifles. I could see he was a little confused what to do and finally mentioned that if it's a private sale/transfer, there was no reason for him to be involved. He said to just get a case at Academy sports, a few locks and declare the rifle when checking in. So I did just that. At Bergstrom airport, I went to the check-in counter and mentioned I have a firearm. I was given an orange card to sign that states that the firearm is unloaded. She then asked for me to take it to the TSA inspection station right next to the counters. The TSA guy asked me to remove the locks, which I did. He lifted the lid of the case, glanced at the rifle and asked to lock the locks. He then ran that white anti-tamper cloth to wipe the edges of the case and put it on the conveyor belt.

At Newark Airport, I had to go to the odd-size baggage to pick it up and that was that.

 

[Bithabus]

I could see he was a little confused what to do and finally mentioned that if it's a private sale/transfer, there was no reason for him to be involved.

He was wrong.

 

[zomborama]

I was kinda afraid this would happen. For future reference what should have been the proper procedure if I were there at the TX FFL shop with the rifle and with my brother-in-law?

Should I have mailed the rifle myself to my FFL back in Jersey? Or would the TX dealer have had to send it? What form(s) need to be filled out for this to happen? Does the rifle need to be shipped even if I'm there to pick it up?

The TX FFL seemed unconcerned and mentioned that there is no paperwork to file on the TX side and I brought up the NJ Certificate of Eligibility required for NJ, which I filled out and signed with my brother-in-law. The COE is basically a questionnaire for the receiver that ask the standard questions such as are you a felon, are you an alcoholic, etc. basically absolving the seller/transferor from liability in case the receiver is found to be ineligible.

Thanks.

 

[Bithabus]

I was kinda afraid this would happen. For future reference what should have been the proper procedure if I were there at the TX FFL shop with the rifle and with my brother-in-law?

Should I have mailed the rifle myself to my FFL back in Jersey? Or would the TX dealer have had to send it? What form(s) need to be filled out for this to happen? Does the rifle need to be shipped even if I'm there to pick it up?

The TX FFL seemed unconcerned and mentioned that there is no paperwork to file on the TX side and I brought up the NJ Certificate of Eligibility required for NJ, which I filled out and signed with my brother-in-law. The COE is basically a questionnaire for the receiver that ask the standard questions such as are you a felon, are you an alcoholic, etc. basically absolving the seller/transferor from liability in case the receiver is found to be ineligible.

Thanks.

We gave you several legal options and you chose to ignore them.

 

[Dawico]

Shoot, shovel, and shut up.

Sorry, it was the closest quote I had for the situation. It sounds like you tried Zombora, and ended up breaking the law anyways (and yes, yes you did). I would have just taken the rifle back that I loaned my FIL years ago. Yes, I would be breaking the law also, but there would be much less proof.

Anyways, tell us about the gun. Is it in good shape? Worth anything besides sentiment (besides the fact that you haven't seen it since you loaned it to him ofcourse winkwink)?

 

[zomborama]

The rifle is a .22 Marlin 81 DL, bolt action with a feedtube and doesn't look to have been fired. It has no serial number but based on what I've seen on posts, it could either be pre WWII or post up to 1968. The stock is walnut and needs to be refinished, which I'm eager to try. The barrel has some rust in places so I think this will be a fun project.

 

[Dawico]

Just so it has been said, you will ruin any value it may have if you refinish it. If it has no value already then enjoy.

 

[zomborama]

From what I gather, it's not much of a collectible gun but it's been said to be accurate and fun to shoot. I shot one like this when I was in the JROTC in high school and it really was a nice training rifle.https://picasaweb.google.com/112212141703903135619/January32012

 

[Bithabus]

It has no serial number

Well there you go.

 

[matefrio]

Knowing the law is one thing. You're over thinking this.