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  • rrooke

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    May 9, 2009
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    I am trying to find out the laws as they apply to my 16 year old son. He wants to go shooting with his friend on their private land in the country, but I don't know if it is legal for him to take his handgun with him in his car to go to the land. His friend is 18, but my son is only 16. They also want to take their rifles and shotguns, so I would like to know all the laws pertaining to under 18's and carrying guns in cars, but specifically the handgun I gave him last Christmas. Does he have to be with an adult or parent or can he just go out with his buddy and shoot? Any help is appreciated.
     

    whit128

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    Sec. 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD. (a) In this section:
    (1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of age.
    (2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the chamber.
    (3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
    (b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence:
    (1) failed to secure the firearm; or
    (2) left the firearm in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access.
    (c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the child's access to the firearm:
    (1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
    (2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people or property;
    (3) was gained by entering property in violation of this code; or
    (4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged in an agricultural enterprise.
    (d) Except as provided by Subsection (e), an offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
    (e) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor if the child discharges the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury to himself or another person.
     

    txinvestigator

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    The law quoted above is directed at the person who does not secure the firearm.

    SInce your son's friend is 18 there would be no violation.

    This law would worry me some;

    Texas Penal Code
    Sec. 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
    (2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;


    Regarding car carry, there is no age limit.

    See all of Texas' firearms laws here; [url]http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm[/URL]
     

    rrooke

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    Thanks for the info. That law is a bit scary. It could be interpreted to say that a father can't give his own son a gun. Is this correct? I grew up with guns, and my dad sold a gun to pay the hospital bill when I was born. I am a real son of a gun. I have taught my kids how to handle guns and feel that they know more about guns than most 40 year olds. I suspect many dads give their sons guns. Are we all breaking the law?
     

    Big country

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    The law quoted above is directed at the person who does not secure the firearm.

    SInce your son's friend is 18 there would be no violation.

    This law would worry me some;




    Regarding car carry, there is no age limit.

    See all of Texas' firearms laws here; [URL="http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm"][url]http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm[/URL][/URL]
    So it dose not matter weather the handgun is involved or not as long as the "child" :rolleyes: is being "supervised" by the 18 year old? When I was 16 I would go dove hunting without having someone 18 or up with me transporting my shot gun, or for that mater my deer rifle. But both of the penal codes could apply here it seems to me.
     

    whit128

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    That is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. I dove hunted a tank near Hondo where there were several very responsible children with shotguns, it was a pay by the day and I had no idea who they were or where their parents were at. During whitetail season my daughter at 14 got herself up, grabbed her 243, jumped in my pickup and went to the blind. Now on the other hand there was a crimestopper call about a young man with a gun at the school. Turned out he was 16 and had the rifle in his pickup from the previous night of hog hunting and due to his immaturity he had showed it to several students during lunch break. Nothing wrong with a gun in the parking lot except for school policy regarding students, parents were cited for making the firearm available.
     

    txinvestigator

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    That is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
    Yeah, I hear that often. But I don't see those terms defined, so at best they are subjective, usually twisted to the presenters point of view.

    I dove hunted a tank near Hondo where there were several very responsible children with shotguns,
    CHILDREN? As in 8 and 9 year olds? Or do you mean teens?

    it was a pay by the day and I had no idea who they were or where their parents were at. During whitetail season my daughter at 14 got herself up, grabbed her 243, jumped in my pickup and went to the blind.
    When and where was all of this?
     

    whit128

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    TXI, I see you spent almost 9 years as a LEO so I figure you understand the letter and spirit of the law. If you do not I then see why you no longer work in LE. The tank in Hondo was on a private farm, the owner advertised in the austin paper in the mid 90s. When I say children I would have to say they looked mid teens, either way as far as I was concerned they were very responsible. As far as my daughters hunting we have about 3000 acres in kimble county, all private if you are concerned about her driving.

    its a cop thing.
     

    txinvestigator

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    TXI, I see you spent almost 9 years as a LEO
    Wrong again.

    so I figure you understand the letter and spirit of the law. If you do not I then see why you no longer work in LE.

    Please, don't even attempt your subtle insult. You know exactly what I wrote and what I meant. I also don't see a rebuttal of my POV, so I assume that that fact added to your insult is the typical response of a person with no argument.

    Your inslut is also reported.
     

    Renegade

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    This law would worry me some;

    Texas Penal Code

    Sec. 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
    (2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;

    This should ease the worry some:

    (b) In this section:


    (c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.
     

    txinvestigator

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    This should ease the worry some:

    (b) In this section:


    (c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.

    Yeah, I know. The Affirmative Defense thing bothers me......I hate that.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Just out of curiosity, what dose the "affirmative" mean? I would think it would mean that it is an "officers discretion" kinda thing?

    Officers always have discretion when making arrests, except in very limited family violence situations.

    To arrest a person an officer must have probable cause to believe that the person met the elements of an offense. A defense or affirmative defense does not preclude him from making a lawful arrest. Defenses are presented in court.

    On of the elements of an arrest is the negation of any exception to the offense. Meaning that if an exception is present in the the law, then the officer must have PC to believe the exception is negated in that particular incident.

    I would rather see this as an exception.

    Texas Penal Code

    Sec. 2.04. AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. (a) An affirmative defense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is an affirmative defense to prosecution . . . ."
    (b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of an affirmative defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense.
    (c) The issue of the existence of an affirmative defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.
    (d) If the issue of the existence of an affirmative defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that the defendant must prove the affirmative defense by a preponderance of evidence.
     

    Big country

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    I'm not sure I fallow what you're saying about affirmative defence. Okay you're saying that the "affirmative" means that there are exceptions but you will have to be in court to argue them?:confused:
    I was using the officer discretion as an example. Like weather to take a drunk to jail wile they are putting the keys in the ignition or calling them a cab and taking theyr keys.
     

    Big country

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    Or is it saying that you only have an "affirmative defence" if you can prove your defence. Example- Like having some testify that you were with them on the night in question?
     

    thorkyl

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    It all comes down to one thing

    Is the possession by permission?
    Is the possession for legal purposes?

    If yes to both and if confronted the kid does his job and is polite, and offers to call "Dad" to show he has permission then its a no biggie.

    I watched a cop stop my 10yr old while she rode her 4-wheeler down the ditch and ask why she had a handgun in her lap in its holster. she told him she was target shooting at a friends and that she had my permission. the LEO asked me and I said yes. He said ok.

    So A lot of it also has to do with the attitude of the LEO at the moment.
     

    Big country

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    The attitude of the Leo at the moment and the attitude of who he is talking to is always a deciding factor. But he could have done allot more than what he did. Riding the four wheeler threw a ditch is one charge, it being a 10 year old with a pistol is another. He must have been in a very good mood for that not to go bad for you.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I'm not sure I fallow what you're saying about affirmative defence. Okay you're saying that the "affirmative" means that there are exceptions but you will have to be in court to argue them?:confused:
    I was using the officer discretion as an example. Like weather to take a drunk to jail wile they are putting the keys in the ignition or calling them a cab and taking theyr keys.

    What I am saying is a defense or affirmative defense is presented in court. Even with good reason to believe that a defense or an affirmative defense exists, a LEO can make a lawful arrest.

    With an exception, if the LEO has PC to believe the exception exists, a lawful arrest cannot be made.

    There is a difference between a defense and an exception.
     
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