I understand what you're saying, but ............................. if it's posted (even if someone thinks or says it should be higher) and the posting remains, why would that be a "trap"?
Unmarked police vehicles for traffic stops...Thought?
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I understand what you're saying, but ............................. if it's posted (even if someone thinks or says it should be higher) and the posting remains, why would that be a "trap"?
txinvestigator
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The "trap" would typically be where a roadway is posted at a certain speed and then posted at a lower speed for a short distance then be posted at the previous higher speed. It was a problem years ago (late 1990's) where a township along a highway with a small population would have 100 yards or 1/4 mile or so (as an example) and drop the speed limit for their 100 yards or 1/4 mile of "territory" and make a lot of revenue from concentrating efforts on that small stretch of roadway.
There was a stretch of I-59 southwest of Houston that was the focus of investigation by TCLEOSE in the late 90's.
Edit::::that was Kendleton. It made the news as a "speed trap" for years and eventually the law caught up with them. They went to jail for running their racket.::::end Edit
My Dad (retired from TCLEOSE in 2000) would tell me about different places where the local population may be a few hundred people and oddly enough the PD would have a rather large fleet of brand new cruisers. "how can a community of 400 people afford 25 brand new Crown Vic's for their department?" was the question Dad posed to me. His answer was "speed traps". But....to stay on topic, they were marked.
Notice now days there is often signage stating a reduced speed limit ahead.
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AFAICT, it dealt with the Texas Transportation Code, Sec. 545.356, which says "The governing body of a municipality, for a highway or part of a highway in the municipality, including a highway of the state highway system, has the same authority to alter by ordinance prima facie speed limits from the results of an engineering and traffic investigation as the Texas Transportation Commission on an officially designated or marked highway of the state highway system." (Emphasis added.)
My basic understanding of what happened is that the Texas Transportation Commission set a speed limit of 45 on that road. The City of Houston then came along and slapped up 35MPH limit signs without doing the required engineering and traffic investigation. Attorneys figured it out and started getting their clients off on the basis that the posted speed was unenforceable. Pretty soon, it was an open secret and anyone who wanted to go to the trouble could show up in court, talk to the prosecutor, and get those tickets dropped.
However, even though they were bad tickets HPD continued to write them for years. Eventually various local press outlets had run enough stories on the situation that someone finally got embarrassed enough to remove the bogus 35MPH speed limit signs.
This situation may or may not meet the definition of a speed trap as promulgated by any particular person; that's a matter of opinion. I don't think it's a matter of opinion that the continued writing of bad tickets along that stretch by HPD was...well...pick your own adjective: sleazy, shady, incompetent, stupid, whatever.
While it should not be necessary to point this out, I will mention something obvious anyway. A police department does not post the speed limit signs on the roadways and has very limited input in getting them changed. Each speed zone or regulatory sign is covered by an ordinance (if within a municipality) and requires a vote by city council to change. Law enforcement officers only enforce the laws that their governing body enacts.
I had meetings with the Public Works Director twice in an effort to get a school zone removed after a road was redesigned and a child could not cross the road without a ladder. City council finally agreed and updated the ordinance.
I had meetings with the Public Works Director twice in an effort to get a school zone removed after a road was redesigned and a child could not cross the road without a ladder. City council finally agreed and updated the ordinance.
Absolutely.
I would, however, expect a police department to stop writing (most) tickets along a stretch where the signs are known to be simply wrong, where their tickets are routinely thrown out. What puzzled me (and everybody that rode that stretch of road on the way to work every morning) was that I couldn't think of a good reason for them to continue writing those tickets.
I hope someone watching this thread will have more experience and insight than me; I'm genuinely curious about their motivation.
Not knowing what is located on the stretch of road you are referring to, I'll just throw out a few possible reasons enforcement continued. (They may or may not apply)
Business owners or nearby residents complaining about high speed drivers ignoring the posted limit.
The frequency of accidents in that area. Some folks actually obey speed limits and some do not; the variance between the two groups is a large cause of crashes.
The presence of school children or elderly folks along the roadway. (nearby school or bingo hall?)
A sight restriction or any special circumstance that would call for a lower than normal speed limit.
A higher than normal amount of large trucks entering or turning off the roadway.
Lack of something of that nature would make ME wonder is there was possibly a Shipleys in the area.
Hey, when you're feeling satisfied and your belly is full.....go find something easy to do!
Business owners or nearby residents complaining about high speed drivers ignoring the posted limit.
The frequency of accidents in that area. Some folks actually obey speed limits and some do not; the variance between the two groups is a large cause of crashes.
The presence of school children or elderly folks along the roadway. (nearby school or bingo hall?)
A sight restriction or any special circumstance that would call for a lower than normal speed limit.
A higher than normal amount of large trucks entering or turning off the roadway.
Lack of something of that nature would make ME wonder is there was possibly a Shipleys in the area.
Hey, when you're feeling satisfied and your belly is full.....go find something easy to do!
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Those are all great reasons for a municipality to do an engineering and traffic investigation and, based on the results, lower a speed limit. I don't think they are acceptable reasons for police officers to write tickets that they know will not stand in court.
Don't know how to say this without sounding adversarial because I truly am trying to show the "other side" of the issue, but if there is a black and white regulatory sign posted with a speed limit and motorists are routinely ignoring it, it WILL be enforced by traffic officers, to some extent.
Remember, cops don't get paid for convictions....only to write the ticket and show the "problem" is trying to be corrected. I cannot go any deeper into the mindset of that issue because I never experienced any similar circumstances in my career where I knew my efforts were for naught. And, it is not fair to judge another's actions when we cannot possibly know what behind the scene factors contributed to it. For instance, there could have been a sergeant, captain or deputy chief pushing for strict enforcement in that location and the actual guys writing the citations were following strict orders. I HAVE been there, as in told to enforce a "NO TRUCKS" zone to all but one company that had a friend on city council. I won that one.......
You're not sounding adversarial. You're sounding informative and insightful. Thanks for the perspective; I really appreciate it.
My understanding is that you would be legal only until you light me up with red flashing lights showing to your front. That's illegal. At that point, I have no way of knowing you're a bad guy from what I can see in my rear view mirror, especially at night. I'll pull over and become a crime victim. I don't see any practical way to avoid it short of everybody refusing to pull over for the ploice until they reach a lit, populated area...and that's NOT practical, IMO.
Nope, sorry. I will paste a bunch of the law related to that, but only two words will be pertinent.
Sec 547.305 (c) A person may not operate a motor vehicle equipped with a red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating light unless the equipment is:
(1) used as specifically authorized by this chapter; or
(2) a running lamp, headlamp, taillamp, backup lamp, or turn signal lamp that is used as authorized by law.
(d) A vehicle may be equipped with alternately flashing lighting equipment described by Section 547.701 or 547.702 only if the vehicle is:
(1) a school bus;
(2) an authorized emergency vehicle;
(3) a church bus that has the words "church bus" printed on the front and rear of the bus so as to be clearly discernable to other vehicle operators;
(4) a tow truck while under the direction of a law enforcement officer at the scene of an accident or while hooking up to a disabled vehicle on a roadway; or
(5) a tow truck with a mounted light bar which has turn signals and stop lamps in addition to those required by Sections 547.322, 547.323, and 547.324, Transportation Code.
Doesn't say you have to even turn them on. "Equipped with" will be the key. That is why almost every cop impersonator uses the little Kojak light that is hidden from view until he picks his target.
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Thanks for all that. As usual, I was wrong.
But I stand by my opinion that if I get lit up by a car with a light bar installed, I'll pull over even if I don't see markings. The chance that it's not a cop is so small I'm willing to risk it.
The ones that say poleece on the doors of course. Gee, everybody knows that.
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