What do you like to see in a training course?

[ausshooter]

We were having a debate recently among some of our instructors and I'm curious what everyone thinks. When we teach our classes we cover the following "big" topics.

Medical Plan
Firearm Safety
Firearm Manipulation
Firearm Accuracy
Firearm Speed
Mindset
Gear

When you guys go to training, do you look to the instructors to provide the last two topics as an important part of the class? Or is that just a bonus depending on the instructor's experience? Are there other pieces of training that aren't included here that you feel need to be a part of every training course?

 

[grasshopperglock]

Thats an excellent list.

The only time I hated a class. Was when the instructor reloaded. He actually threw a fit when you stepped on a hull or casing. So you were more worried about pissing him then the training. And this was a Police firearms instructor.

"Stop stepping on the hulls!!!! There Winchester double X!"

What a douche.

 

[ausshooter]

That's pretty silly. I've been to lots of training courses in my career, and only really received information on the latter two subjects from experienced instructors. Everyone else seems to avoid the issue, and I'm not sure if it's not wanting to fight egos or perception.... I'm just curious as to what people really want to get out of a course aside from making empty brass cases!

 

[Mic]

I would like to see them covered. I've taken some classes from KR training and they definitely included gear. Somewhat mindset, but not necessarily as a separate entity (that I recollect). The way I look at it, I'm there to learn what you offer and put it in my bag of info. If I choose to go a different route with gear or not incorporate every one of your ideas in my ongoing training, that's fine. But at least I've been introduced to your methods/ideas and the reasoning.

 

[chris211]

Clearing firearm malfunctions. It's a little shocking to go to the range and find how many people can not clear a malfunction and have to get the Range Officer or the guy next to them to work it out for them.

 

[TundraWookiee]

Clearing firearm malfunctions. It's a little shocking to go to the range and find how many people can not clear a malfunction and have to get the Range Officer or the guy next to them to work it out for them.

I'll agree with this.

In response to the topics posted I think the "mindset" portion should be part of any course. How you think and react plays a huge part in how any situation comes to be or plays out.

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[ausshooter]

I would like to see them covered. I've taken some classes from KR training and they definitely included gear. Somewhat mindset, but not necessarily as a separate entity (that I recollect). The way I look at it, I'm there to learn what you offer and put it in my bag of info. If I choose to go a different route with gear or not incorporate every one of your ideas in my ongoing training, that's fine. But at least I've been introduced to your methods/ideas and the reasoning.

Karl and his crew are experts at their craft. I definitely can see where gear info is helpful in rifle classes, as I see a lot of junk that people hang off their rails just because it looks good. Giving a good frame of reference as to why you need this or that is extremely helpful.

The pistol side is a bit different, it's hard to break it nicely to a guy that his Ruger P93 isn't doing him any favors when it malfunctions constantly and is very difficult to shoot. Then again, hopefully going through a training class will show them the deficiencies in their equipment and they can work to get better gear from there.

Great last point. I always liked the "it's a toolbox" mantra. Just like the old "rack the slide" or "use the slide stop" argument, everyone will have to make their own choices but it's good to present why you do something your way.

 

[ausshooter]

Clearing firearm malfunctions. It's a little shocking to go to the range and find how many people can not clear a malfunction and have to get the Range Officer or the guy next to them to work it out for them.

I agree. I file that under 'manipulations', and I definitely think it's an important part of knowing how to run a weapon system efficiently. The ironic part about it is the people with the most reliable equipment need to practice it more than anyone else!

 

[ausshooter]

I'll agree with this.

In response to the topics posted I think the "mindset" portion should be part of any course. How you think and react plays a huge part in how any situation comes to be or plays out.

Thanks Jared. I am always concerned that students will think it's more about telling a war story or bragging about past exploits, and that is never the intention. Many of us have learned very hard lessons and paid for it in blood. We dishonor them by not learning from their mistakes to make ourselves better tacticians. Many people have never really run into that 1% who are true predators in life..

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Thanks Jared. I am always concerned that students will think it's more about telling a war story or bragging about past exploits, and that is never the intention. Many of us have learned very hard lessons and paid for it in blood. We dishonor them by not learning from their mistakes to make ourselves better tacticians. Many people have never really run into that 1% who are true predators in life..

Those rare and/or costly personal experiences and lessons are worth the cost of a course IMO. Most people will never be in a gunfight, at least as far as the average civilian goes. Heck, I've known a number of LEO's that have been on watch for 20-30+ years, that have still never been in a single OIS. The ability to learn from someone that has, or has been up to right before that point of dropping the hammer, or any other similarly relevant experience is something seriously valuable for everyone to learn from. That and continued education are the primary reasons I still take training classes whenever I can, and why I can't wait to take one from you Aaron. It's all about those "golden nuggets".

Definitely manipulations. The single biggest issue I've seen in my own experiences is people's lack of attention to detail in their manipulations and techniques, especially on their admin load process, reloads, and clearing process. Sometimes it's funny seeing that 2lb chunk of steel completely dominate that grown adult human being, when it is really just a simple machine when it gets right down to. Not so funny when those bad habits translate over to LE or civilians putting on their CHL gun to go out and about, and they never even stopped to check the status of their gun.

Speed. I find one of the biggest problems a lot of people have is learning to shoot fast, consistently. It's great getting them on the shot timer and getting them to start understanding the numbers related to what they're doing, and being able to see themselves improve.

BTW, love the look of the site Aaron! Excellent background images! :-)

 

[Bithabus]

I don't want to hear about mindset or get gear recommendations. I don't need to pay $200 to listen to that. The safety talk should be minimal and happen once, after that any unsafe person should be booted.

 

[stalker19]

Something I have started doing recently, in beginner and intermediate classes is a quick maintenance/gear POI as the first block of instruction. I don't turn it into a long gear talk, but just push the idea of lube, good mags, acceptable training ammo, and decent support gear.

Some think this is weird but I've seen tons of students fighting their weapon and gear problems to the point that it essentially ruins their learning experience. By doing it this way, it can help clean some of those issues before getting into training.

I generally leave out malfunctions and maintenance in an "advanced" class unless a question or serious issue pops up. People attending those sort of classes should already have a firm foundation in weapons manipulation, and should already know to do what they have to to complete their action.

I typically close with mindset talk. Helps bring together why I teach how I do, and gives folks something to think about during their trip home.

I also encourage them to follow up with a good range session after their heads have time to process the information and time to think about their weaknesses.

The truth is (few instructors admit this)No instructor on earth is going to solve their problems, they just show students how, and it is up to them to follow up.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I think it's a great idea to add those topics, the more information passed on the better. As stated above those are extra tools we can put in our tool box to use if we need to. When I take a class/course I want the most info. I can get, regardless if it's something I "think" I may already know, sometimes I'll pick up on things that are different than how I was initially taught. I may like it, I may not but having the option of an additional way to do something is where I think the pay off is. Do y'all pass on any "after the class" information? Like all the different shooting sports or gun clubs they can get involved with. Or maybe where the local ranges and firearm retail shops/gunsmiths are located, and organizations that support firearm enthusiast like the NRA. Just some additional information passed along to keep them interested and involved in shooting. I've seen many people go take a basic firearm course or get their CHL and than that's it, which bothers me to know there are lots of people out there carrying a firearm they're not proficient with....

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The truth is (few instructors admit this)No instructor on earth is going to solve their problems, they just show students how, and it is up to them to follow up.

This.

Far too often people expect a class will teach them all they need to know. A good class teaches a person a few things, but most importantly teaches them how to learn, so outside of class they can properly learn on their own. I would even warrant a guess that a significant percentage of learning, maybe even 80%+, takes place outside of class. Those that keep up with dry fire, regular practice, and paying attention to detail shows up on the range. Those that just take a class, and only occasionally blow some ammo on the range, that shows as well.

 

[ausshooter]

Those rare and/or costly personal experiences and lessons are worth the cost of a course IMO. Most people will never be in a gunfight, at least as far as the average civilian goes. Heck, I've known a number of LEO's that have been on watch for 20-30+ years, that have still never been in a single OIS. The ability to learn from someone that has, or has been up to right before that point of dropping the hammer, or any other similarly relevant experience is something seriously valuable for everyone to learn from. That and continued education are the primary reasons I still take training classes whenever I can, and why I can't wait to take one from you Aaron. It's all about those "golden nuggets".

Definitely manipulations. The single biggest issue I've seen in my own experiences is people's lack of attention to detail in their manipulations and techniques, especially on their admin load process, reloads, and clearing process. Sometimes it's funny seeing that 2lb chunk of steel completely dominate that grown adult human being, when it is really just a simple machine when it gets right down to. Not so funny when those bad habits translate over to LE or civilians putting on their CHL gun to go out and about, and they never even stopped to check the status of their gun.

Speed. I find one of the biggest problems a lot of people have is learning to shoot fast, consistently. It's great getting them on the shot timer and getting them to start understanding the numbers related to what they're doing, and being able to see themselves improve.

BTW, love the look of the site Aaron! Excellent background images! :-)

I agree. Some of the biggest takeaways from mindset speeches I've taken is the relentlessness that true warriors have. Men who are taking accurate incoming fire and turn around to put hate on the bad guys. How quickly bad things happen and how much you have to be on top of your game in order to win. Also, bribing lady luck never hurts.

Agreed on manipulations. I think that's one of the great things about a good foundation of training and "schools" in general. If you are given an standard operating procedure and you embrace and practice it, it will save your ass. From loading the gun to clearing a malfunction to reloading... it's all about having a good solid procedure and then practicing it until you are ruthlessly efficient.

Speed is an interesting concept for some, and I try to introduce it in my foundation classes and then really push it in the intermediate. In my opinion when you are learning your basic drills speed should not be the main emphasis, as it tends to lead to speeding up the wrong things (trigger pull, sight alignment) instead of the right things (draw stroke, manipulations). Students tend to shoot fast and manipulate slow, and they need to learn to do the opposite.

Once you are at an intermediate or advanced level, pushing that speed and bringing them out of their comfort zone is much more appropriate - you also know they (usually) will have the skills to practice these things safely. It is unfortunately a trade off due to safety concerns in a class setting.

Thanks! We are going to work on a new revision here soon and change a few things, but overall I'm very happy with it.

 

[ausshooter]

I don't want to hear about mindset or get gear recommendations. I don't need to pay $200 to listen to that. The safety talk should be minimal and happen once, after that any unsafe person should be booted.

There are always going to be folks who don't need that advice, but I've always operated that there may be something small that I can pick up from everyone that will be worth the time. It's a tough balance - most people in beginner/intermediate classes are still figuring everything out and those talks/suggestions can steer them in the right direction and help them avoid a lot of wasted time and money.

But what constitutes an 'unsafe' person? Would you consider someone who has trouble hitting the target at 25 yards 'unsafe'? How about someone who flags themselves with an empty gun when reholstering? To me these are safety concerns, but they are beginner errors which can be corrected. Flagging your neighbor with a loaded gun, being careless with a loaded firearm (throwing it on the ground) or drawing a loaded gun behind the line .... those are big ones. I usually will have a 'come to jesus' with these students once and after that I'll tell them they need to pack up their gear.

 

[ausshooter]

Something I have started doing recently, in beginner and intermediate classes is a quick maintenance/gear POI as the first block of instruction. I don't turn it into a long gear talk, but just push the idea of lube, good mags, acceptable training ammo, and decent support gear.

Some think this is weird but I've seen tons of students fighting their weapon and gear problems to the point that it essentially ruins their learning experience. By doing it this way, it can help clean some of those issues before getting into training.

I generally leave out malfunctions and maintenance in an "advanced" class unless a question or serious issue pops up. People attending those sort of classes should already have a firm foundation in weapons manipulation, and should already know to do what they have to to complete their action.

I typically close with mindset talk. Helps bring together why I teach how I do, and gives folks something to think about during their trip home.

I also encourage them to follow up with a good range session after their heads have time to process the information and time to think about their weaknesses.

The truth is (few instructors admit this)No instructor on earth is going to solve their problems, they just show students how, and it is up to them to follow up.

I start my rifle courses the same way. It seems that the 'tacticool' factor overwhelms most folks and they have never really operated with all their junk on. I usually see them lose about half (if not more) of their equipment by lunch. In one group these two guys had high end rifles and plate carriers that were all decked out. They could not get a good zero on the guns because they were fighting the plate carrier (it was adjusted too high and they didn't know how to plant the stock under the plates). They tried everything and finally ended up ditching the cordura and all of a sudden life was good. It's a tough lesson to learn, but you don't want people wasting their time fighting gear instead of learning.

I tend to highlight malfunctions in the intermediate class - it's already been introduced, but then I run some "malfunction junction" type drills and really add stress to their performance expectations. This will show you how well you actually have them learned, and still emphasize that accuracy is needed even when you are doing other things. It's true, students "should know" all of that, but the fact is that many don't practice it and still more have never had to perform them under stress.

I too follow up with range session and dry fire ideas. You can lead a horse to water...

Any instructor who doesn't admit that is lying to themselves! Any instructor who has been around the block a time or two has most likely encountered 'those' students anyway. I've had the pleasure of teaching for my agency and you can definitely tell the difference between teaching an elective course and mandatory.....

 

[ausshooter]

I think it's a great idea to add those topics, the more information passed on the better. As stated above those are extra tools we can put in our tool box to use if we need to. When I take a class/course I want the most info. I can get, regardless if it's something I "think" I may already know, sometimes I'll pick up on things that are different than how I was initially taught. I may like it, I may not but having the option of an additional way to do something is where I think the pay off is. Do y'all pass on any "after the class" information? Like all the different shooting sports or gun clubs they can get involved with. Or maybe where the local ranges and firearm retail shops/gunsmiths are located, and organizations that support firearm enthusiast like the NRA. Just some additional information passed along to keep them interested and involved in shooting. I've seen many people go take a basic firearm course or get their CHL and than that's it, which bothers me to know there are lots of people out there carrying a firearm they're not proficient with....

You have a fantastic attitude, and one that I ask my students to have. I had a 30 year retired Marine take one of my pistol courses and he stood at the back of the group in the morning with his arms crossed the whole time. Every time I suggested a correction he would say "Well that's how the Marine Corps taught me". I didn't argue with him, but when he started to get beat by some of the other students in class because of his inefficiencies, he started to come around. By the end of the day he had decided to open his mind and started to really see where he could improve. He had a lot of old habits that would take a lot of effort to break, but he had come around to the 'toolbox' mindset. I couldn't have asked for more. Often you just have to walk the walk with these students. If you can't produce, they'll never believe.

I do follow up with students with drills used in class as well as resources for them to read and use. I didn't think about putting in the shooting sports, that's a great idea, especially since I'm such a fanatic.

There are far too many shooters who don't do jack after they get their CHL. As I've said many times before, I can take a motivated person and teach them how to shoot, but I can't do anything with someone who doesn't care.

 

[TheDan]

Mindset is like a fulcrum point. Where your mind is at determines whether the situation is leveraged for or against you. Everything hinges on mindset, so yeah I think it should be included. A discussion on mindset can also define the reason for the training.

Gear is almost irrelevant. It doesn't matter if someone has a HiPoint or an HK; what they need to learn is how to manipulate and get on target with whatever weapon they might have. I would only make suggestions on gear if I see someone using something incorrectly or if directly asked for advice. The guys that put 10lbs of shit on a 7lb rifle usually figure it out on their own pretty quickly once they start running drills.

 

[Bithabus]

There are always going to be folks who don't need that advice, but I've always operated that there may be something small that I can pick up from everyone that will be worth the time. It's a tough balance - most people in beginner/intermediate classes are still figuring everything out and those talks/suggestions can steer them in the right direction and help them avoid a lot of wasted time and money.

But what constitutes an 'unsafe' person? Would you consider someone who has trouble hitting the target at 25 yards 'unsafe'? How about someone who flags themselves with an empty gun when reholstering? To me these are safety concerns, but they are beginner errors which can be corrected. Flagging your neighbor with a loaded gun, being careless with a loaded firearm (throwing it on the ground) or drawing a loaded gun behind the line .... those are big ones. I usually will have a 'come to jesus' with these students once and after that I'll tell them they need to pack up their gear.

I don't see "mindset" as something that can be taught by making speeches. Either someone has it or he doesn't, and most people don't really know until the SHTF moment. I believe training can overcome mindset deficiency, but not telling stories (as interesting as the stories may be).