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What makes a 1911 a 1911?

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  • mac79912

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    Cooperism.gif

    Cooperism 101.:D
     

    zaraster

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    A 1911 is a weapon built to the plans and specks of Mr Browning. Where the parts will change out on the guns made to milspeck from 1 company to another.
    Altho it was chambered in 38spl I consider 45 the real 1911
     

    Porter

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    The original pistol Browning designed, that he later based the design submitted for Army testing on, was chambered in .38 super (I think). However, the pistol that was submitted for testing, and that was dubbed the M1911 by the military, was chambered in .45 at the Army's request. I've got an article written at the time the testing was being performed floating around here somewhere. I'll dig it out later, and try to scan it tomorrow.
     

    Bullseye Shooter

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    You can find just about anything on the internet.
    From www.m1911.org website:

    The Colt Model 1911 was the product of a very capable person, namely John Moses Browning, father of several modern firearms.
    The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thomson (inventor of the Thomson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, J. Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar to contemporary .38 Super (dimension-wise). When the Army announced its interest in a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this handgun to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design (with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet), and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.
    In the selection process, which started at 1906 with firearms submitted by Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill and Smith & Wesson, Browning's design was selected, together with the Savage design in 1907. However, the U.S. Army pressed for some service tests, which revealed that neither pistol (Colt's or Savage's) had reached the desired perfection. The Ordnance Department instituted a series of further tests and experiments, which eventually resulted in the appointment of a selection committee, in 1911.
    Browning was determined to prove the superiority of his handgun, so he went to Hartford to personally supervise the production of the gun. There he met Fred Moore, a young Colt employee with whom he worked in close cooperation trying to make sure that each part that was produced for the test guns was simply the best possible. The guns produced were submitted again for evaluation, to the committee. A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.
    Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors. It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.
    The report of the evaluation committee (taken from 'The .45 Automatic, An American Rifleman Reprint', published by the National Rifle Association of America) released on the 20th of March 1911 stated :
    "Of the two pistols, the board was of the opinion that the Colt is superior, because it is more reliable, more enduring, more easily disassembled when there are broken parts to be replaced, and more accurate."On March 29th, 1911, the Browning-designed, Colt-produced .45 Automatic pistol, was selected as the official sidearm of the Armed Forces of U.S.A., and named Model 1911.
     

    LittleGun

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    I don't know what makes a 1911 a 1911, but I want one. I went to the range and rented a 9mm 1911. It didn't feel right. When I buy a 1911 it will be a .45.
     

    zaraster

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    You can find just about anything on the internet.
    From www.m1911.org website:

    The Colt Model 1911 was the product of a very capable person, namely John Moses Browning, father of several modern firearms.
    The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thomson (inventor of the Thomson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, J. Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar to contemporary .38 Super (dimension-wise). When the Army announced its interest in a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this handgun to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design (with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet), and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.
    In the selection process, which started at 1906 with firearms submitted by Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill and Smith & Wesson, Browning's design was selected, together with the Savage design in 1907. However, the U.S. Army pressed for some service tests, which revealed that neither pistol (Colt's or Savage's) had reached the desired perfection. The Ordnance Department instituted a series of further tests and experiments, which eventually resulted in the appointment of a selection committee, in 1911.
    Browning was determined to prove the superiority of his handgun, so he went to Hartford to personally supervise the production of the gun. There he met Fred Moore, a young Colt employee with whom he worked in close cooperation trying to make sure that each part that was produced for the test guns was simply the best possible. The guns produced were submitted again for evaluation, to the committee. A torture test was conducted, on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.
    Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors. It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.
    The report of the evaluation committee (taken from 'The .45 Automatic, An American Rifleman Reprint', published by the National Rifle Association of America) released on the 20th of March 1911 stated :
    "Of the two pistols, the board was of the opinion that the Colt is superior, because it is more reliable, more enduring, more easily disassembled when there are broken parts to be replaced, and more accurate."On March 29th, 1911, the Browning-designed, Colt-produced .45 Automatic pistol, was selected as the official sidearm of the Armed Forces of U.S.A., and named Model 1911.
    __________________
    Navy Vet, Distinguished Pistol Shot #1399



    looking it up takes the fun out of it. Like when I screwed up nd said it was chambered in 38spl and it should have been 38acp
     

    idleprocess

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    Most 1911 aficionados love the trigger as much as anything.

    Otherwise, I'm thinking the key factors are .45ACP, single-stack magazine (7rd), single-action linear trigger, hammer-fired, grip safety, manual safety, Browning barrel lock, and the link-tilt barrel mechanism.

    Symbolically, it was the American military sidearm for more than sixty years and served well in four major conflicts. The military seems to want the M1911 back in part even if it's somewhat more maintenance-intensive than the M9 if only because it hits much harder.
     

    Army 1911

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    A 1911 is a weapon built to the plans and specks of Mr Browning. Where the parts will change out on the guns made to milspeck from 1 company to another.
    Altho it was chambered in 38spl I consider 45 the real 1911

    I think it was only chambered in 38spl after WWII. The 38 midrange special. Prior to WWII there was the 38 super which was the most powerfull pistol cartridge at the time and forced S&W to make the .357 magnum in response.

    But the caliber is not important to me. It is just the engine that drives it. Kinda like a 400 horse Covette and one with 350 horses. They are both vettes.

    Come on Guys give me some of your definitions of what makes a 1911.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    I'll try again, how's this?


    Fact: ~97 years of time to improve on a design
    Fact: Gigantic leaps in manufacturing technology within 97yrs to improve on design/manufacture
    Fact: Wanting a Glock because after 97yrs it still costs $1000+ to get a half decent 1911 that half works right = priceless

    Just kidding!


    For me, what makes the 1911 a 1911 consists of the straight pull trigger, barrel bushing, recoil spring plug/lack of a guiderod, and the overall slim/sleek nature of the gun considering the original 45acp chambering.

    One thing I've found is that a majority of non-1911 guns chambered in 45acp are considerably larger in size, width, etc. When you think about it, and if you compare the 1911 to others like say a Sig P220, the 1911 is actually a pretty slim gun.

    As far as the trigger goes, the straight pull to me feels very nice compared to a conventional hinged trigger.

    As far as the barrel bushing, very few other handguns have this, in fact I can't even think of one other at the moment. Yeah so it's unnencessary in this day and age but, I think it's a neat idea and properly/tightly fitting it to the barrel can sure have an excellent effect on accuracy.

    As far as the recoil spring plug, personally I have nothing against full recoil spring guide rods. I don't mind them on 1911's, I don't mind them on other guns. Though, I think the lack of one on the 1911 in it's original form is especially neat as it just simplifies things.

    To me the number one factor in what makes a 1911 a 1911 is in the slim nature I discussed earlier. To me, they really just seem like they were honed out and form fitted to the 45acp cartridge. Most other 45acp handguns seem blocky, bulky, and unnecessarily large in comparison. I still love my Sig P220 to death, though looking at the specs was an eye opener for me. The standard P220 is basically bigger in physical size than a standard 5" 1911, however the specs (4.4" barrel for example) basically make it compare to little more than a Combat Commander, which is considerably smaller than the P220. The only other gun that comes close to this sleek nature IMO is the H&K P9S in 45acp.
     

    zaraster

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    A 1911 feels like it is a part of your hand, Aims great the ballance feels perfect. It shoots like no other weapon. It looks better than other hand guns. It is a true work of art. There is no other weapon like it.

    There you go Army I am a 1911 freak
     

    Texas1911

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    What makes a 1911, a 1911?

    The feel.

    No gun feels as good as a 1911, period, hands down, end of story.

    You can work that down to trigger feel, the ruggedness and balance of a solid steel gun, the snap of a well configured safety, the natural seat that it takes in your hand, and that vintage feel.

    The fact that it was used to win WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam makes it the most iconic firearm ever to be produced in my opinion. The day I win the lottery is the day I buy a missile silo to live in and line the walls with a non-stop library of 1911s.
     

    Army 1911

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    Short answer: Any weapon that if JMB came back today he would recognize as his 1911.

    Longer answer: SA straight pull trigger, locked breach with link system, single stack, grip safety, manual safety, mechanics interchangeble with the original (sears and such), bushing in barrel, guide rod & plug on recoil spring,
    internal extractor.

    Beavertails, FLGRs, extended safeties and slide stops are okay because they do not change the function or operational design of the weapon any more than custom wheels change the function of a car. Any sights are okay as that is just a custom steering wheel.

    Not okay are the DA triggers from Para or Colt or the Seecamp modification. Double stack is out too. Caliber doesn't matter as long as it meets the above criteria. Caliber is just like engine size. A vette is a vette regardless of the HP of the engine.

    Bull barrels and the like do change the functional design so those are out also.

    They can be called 1911 stlyed pistols but not true 1911s.

    If you think about it, most of the "improvements" over the last umpteen years are really just cosmetic. Upswept beavertails may prevent hammer bite but so does the GS on my commander and it is not upswept. FLGR is an elegant solution in search of a problem. Lowered and flared ejection ports--perhaps a functional improvement but I have never had ejection problems that could be attributed to a standard port so it is to me cosmetic.

    Let the flames begin--
     
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