Army chooses Sig Sauer to build its Next Generation Squad Weapon

[Darkpriest667]

I'm shocked this isn't getting more discussion. This changes so many things. The largest, most well funded military in the world is changing the caliber of it's primary squad weapons and this forum prefers to dick around and talk about cars, funny quotes, weird videos, and other things that have 0 to do with firearms.

 

[Vaquero]

I'm shocked this isn't getting more discussion. This changes so many things. The largest, most well funded military in the world is changing the caliber of it's primary squad weapons and this forum prefers to dick around and talk about cars, funny quotes, weird videos, and other things that have 0 to do with firearms.

When you get an AR 10 upper and an optic that takes the guesswork out of hitting a 10" plate at 600+ yds, you win.
When "we" get the same, we retain most of our currently held freedoms.
Honestly, it's a hell of a upgrade.
I pray the guys who get issued these weapons are patriots.

 

[Vaquero]

"If" I can get that optic "tunable" to my Creedmoor handloads, I'm several hundred yards ahead of "the largest and most well funded military in the world".
On my turf.
Good old American ingenuity will get my ass saved or straffed.

 

[TheDan]

This is completely stupid.

Of course it is. ...and a huge waste of money, too. I doubt this new rifle will be significantly better than anything else already available. Creating a new non-NATO cartridge of novel construction is also dumb, although it's in part fixing their fuckup from 60 years ago.

That optic is equally stupid as it is cool, too. I sincerely hope it's still functional as a regular scope when the batteries die on it.

There's nothing you, I, or anyone else on this forum can do about the stupidity and wastefulness of our "betters", so I'm making lemonade. I'm just glad we'll finally have a common 6.x cartridge.

 

[toddnjoyce]

…I can't see any reason that this should be the typical infantryman weapon...

I can. Like it or not, 5.56 kind of sucks as a people killing round. Having said that, one of my men smoked a dude at 427 meters with an off the shelf M4 with M68 optic. One well placed shot while all his army bros were essentially doing recon by fire trying to hit the same guy that was harassing them. Lots of luck with that shot though it proved fundamental marksmanship skills are critical.

I don’t see the need for an entirely new caliber, but what the US Army is looking at combat arms units in general (and IN specifically) to be doing ten years down the road is less of a force on force model and more of a reconnaissance/cavalry model where (fewer) small units ‘create outsize impacts that shape the battle space for deep operations’ to quote a somewhat recent white paper.

Then, there’s also the chicks in combat arms argument. Next to a mortar base plate, ammo is the heaviest part of a soldier’s combat loadout. Composite cartridge that’s even marginally with better ballistic performance means a 210-rd loadout can hypothetically drop to 140ish rds in the assault march. Spread over a 187 man stryker company, that’s more than 10K rounds that don’t have to be rucked or trucked. Ounces are pounds and pounds are pain and increased fuel burn for the prime movers. And most chicks physiologically (except the chicks who’re really dudes that don’t want to do the male Pt test) can’t hack the weight and keep up the pace so it’s a win-win for everybody with a reduced round count. And the electric HMMWV of the future needs all the help in can get to meet the range requirements so payload reduction is a good thing.

 

[TheDan]

I do wonder about reloadability.
Primer pocket in particular.

A lot more info on the cartridge... Commercial primers and propellant they say.

SIG Ammunition Produced & Delivered Over 825,000 Rounds of 6.8x51mm Composite Case Ammo for US Army Next Generation Squad Weapons Program Prototype Test #2 | Soldier Systems Daily

Last month SIG Ammunition delivered 825,000 rounds of their composite cased 6.8x51mm ammunition to the US Army for Prototype Test #2 of the Next Generation ...

soldiersystems.net

 

[Darkpriest667]

I can. Like it or not, 5.56 kind of sucks as a people killing round. Having said that, one of my men smoked a dude at 427 meters with an off the shelf M4 with M68 optic. One well placed shot while all his army bros were essentially doing recon by fire trying to hit the same guy that was harassing them. Lots of luck with that shot though it proved fundamental marksmanship skills are critical.

I don’t see the need for an entirely new caliber, but what the US Army is looking at combat arms units in general (and IN specifically) to be doing ten years down the road is less of a force on force model and more of a reconnaissance/cavalry model where (fewer) small units ‘create outsize impacts that shape the battle space for deep operations’ to quote a somewhat recent white paper.

Then, there’s also the chicks in combat arms argument. Next to a mortar base plate, ammo is the heaviest part of a soldier’s combat loadout. Composite cartridge that’s even marginally with better ballistic performance means a 210-rd loadout can hypothetically drop to 140ish rds in the assault march. Spread over a 187 man stryker company, that’s more than 10K rounds that don’t have to be rucked or trucked. Ounces are pounds and pounds are pain and increased fuel burn for the prime movers. And most chicks physiologically (except the chicks who’re really dudes that don’t want to do the male Pt test) can’t hack the weight and keep up the pace so it’s a win-win for everybody with a reduced round count. And the electric HMMWV of the future needs all the help in can get to meet the range requirements so payload reduction is a good thing.

Right, I understand where you're coming from. That has probably been taken into account, but again - most firefights are within 300 meters.

The first paragraph is something I have a fundamental problem with. Killing the enemy is not ideal. Wounding enemies is the objective as it takes more resources, logistics, and people to care for wounded than it does to bury (or leave) the dead. Am I missing something here?

Payload reduction is my primary argument. Obviously I'm not a 6'1 180 prime human being, but neither are most soldiers. Why would you want MORE weight to ruck LESS rounds? This makes no sense Todd. I now have 140 rounds to shoot at the enemy instead of 210 and they weigh more. So I can't carry more.

 

[Darqhelmet]

Retarded. This is generals fighting the last war again. Wide open spaces in Afghanistan caused them to panic. This thing recoils harder, is heavier, and you have less rounds. We have .308 and we have 5.56. When we need to reach out and touch somone we get out the .308. None of this is punching through armor. I was happy with my M4 and eotech. We have learned that heavy ammo and higher recoil isn’t a good thing. Shit look at the salvo tests. This is big Army doing big Army things. Hopefully the Marines don’t get dragged into it.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Right, I understand where you're coming from. That has probably been taken into account, but again. Most firefights are within 300 meters…

That’s looking backwards. Big green wants to shift from close in firefights to engaging the enemy outside their ability to engage us.

…The first paragraph is something I have a fundamental problem with. Killing the enemy is not ideal. Wounding enemies is the objective as it takes more resources, logistics, and people to care for wounded than it does to bury (or leave) the dead. Am I missing something here?

Yeah…that’s a guerrilla maxim. Nothing beats a dead body though (as Patton memorialized it in his speech to the Third Army).

Payload reduction is my primary argument. Obviously I'm not a 6'1 180 prime human being, but neither are most soldiers. Why would you want MORE weight to ruck LESS rounds? This makes no sense Todd. I now have 140 rounds to shoot at the enemy instead of 210 and they weigh more. So I can't carry more.

Couple of things here, first being a shift that goes back as far as 2008, when Congress decided it was literally cheaper to turn SOF into elite athletes than it was to pay them disability over a lifetime. Since then you’ve seen a shift to more functional and task-oriented fitness requirements. The change in caliber wasn’t an overnight decision, it’s been the subject of research at Natick for nearly a decade now. The composite case is most likely version 1 of a caseless cartridge. Improved ballistic performance means Army can use that documentation to shrink a combat load of ammo to 1 oz lighter than today’s standard and call it a win on the innovation highway.

 

[Darqhelmet]

That’s looking backwards. Big green wants to shift from close in firefights to engaging the enemy outside their ability to engage us.


Yeah…that’s a guerrilla maxim. Nothing beats a dead body though (as Patton memorialized it in his speech to the Third Army).


Couple of things here, first being a shift that goes back as far as 2008, when Congress decided it was literally cheaper to turn SOF into elite athletes than it was to pay them disability over a lifetime. Since then you’ve seen a shift to more functional and task-oriented fitness requirements. The change in caliber wasn’t an overnight decision, it’s been the subject of research at Natick for nearly a decade now. The composite case is most likely version 1 of a caseless cartridge. Improved ballistic performance means Army can use that documentation to shrink a combat load of ammo to 1 oz lighter than today’s standard and call it a win on the innovation highway.

Until we get dragged into mout again which we will. This just feels bad man. It’s generals ruining around screaming we need to be overmatch. And shit last time I worked with the Army you’re all mainly mechanized. Or planned to be, because that always works out… So increase the joes combat load because they are going to be in trucks or Bradley’s or mraps.

 

[Vaquero]

The 5.56 ain't going away.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Until we get dragged into mout again which we will. This just feels bad man. It’s generals ruining around screaming we need to be overmatch. And shit last time I worked with the Army you’re all mainly mechanized. Or planned to be, because that always works out… So increase the joes combat load because they are going to be in trucks or Bradley’s or mraps.

I don’t disagree in general, except the mech part. All a vehicle (plane, train, truck, tank, auto) is is how a trigger puller commutes to work. At the end of the day, you always end up dismounting to fight the close fight while the trucks/tracks/helos attrit as much of the enemy as far away as they can. At some point you have to walk down the last fûckers trying to ruin your day and shoot them in the face.

 

[Darqhelmet]

The 5.56 ain't going away.

Here’s hoping for a huge dump of surplus ammo. (Who am I kidding, never gonna happen)

 

[toddnjoyce]

The 5.56 ain't going away.

It’s not. The vast majority (not just Army, or DoD) will be shooting 5.56 until the B-52 is retired.

 

[Darqhelmet]

I don’t disagree in general, except the mech part. All a vehicle (plane, train, truck, tank, auto) is is how a trigger puller commutes to work. At the end of the day, you always end up dismounting to fight the close fight while the trucks/tracks/helos attrit as much of the enemy as far away as they can. At some point you have to walk down the last fûckers trying to ruin your day and shoot them in the face.

Yup. We humped everywhere. Shit hummers were a luxury. MRAP’s holy shit who did you blow to get those. I agree you have to close with and destroy, which 5.56 does just fine.

 

[Younggun]

The first paragraph is something I have a fundamental problem with. Killing the enemy is not ideal. Wounding enemies is the objective as it takes more resources, logistics, and people to care for wounded than it does to bury (or leave) the dead. Am I missing something here?

Wounded enemies are also a drain on our resources. People tend to get up in arms if a battle is one and you walk the battlefield hole punching the foreheads of anybody still moving. So instead we dump resources in to healing the people that tried to kill us.

Would be much easier if they were dead when we got to them.

 

[Darkpriest667]

That’s looking backwards. Big green wants to shift from close in firefights to engaging the enemy outside their ability to engage us.


Yeah…that’s a guerrilla maxim. Nothing beats a dead body though (as Patton memorialized it in his speech to the Third Army).


Couple of things here, first being a shift that goes back as far as 2008, when Congress decided it was literally cheaper to turn SOF into elite athletes than it was to pay them disability over a lifetime. Since then you’ve seen a shift to more functional and task-oriented fitness requirements. The change in caliber wasn’t an overnight decision, it’s been the subject of research at Natick for nearly a decade now. The composite case is most likely version 1 of a caseless cartridge. Improved ballistic performance means Army can use that documentation to shrink a combat load of ammo to 1 oz lighter than today’s standard and call it a win on the innovation highway.

Those are interesting points. I guess my main question to them is going to be, when you're engaged in urban environments, and god forbid it's any sort of domestic urban environment, when is that extended range going to do you any good? I'd like to see the concrete ballistic test on this round. Is the loss of capacity made up for the ability to punch through concrete barriers or bricks. I'd be ok with it then.

I'm just thinking in order to match what the US will have available if anything happens I now have to buy an upper chambered in another caliber.

And mainly to your points, we have precision drones now so maybe they're thinking that conventional battles are a thing of the past and we need precision troops (SOF via SOCOM) to do surgical attacks versus actual combat operations. Glad it's not me rucking around a 6.8 x 51 TWELVE POUND RIFLE. Jesus.

 

[Coyote9]

I figure Sig would win. Good on them.

Army chooses Sig Sauer to build its Next Generation Squad Weapon

The weapon has an advanced optic, shoots 6.8mm and will replace the M4 carbine and M249 SAW.

www.armytimes.com

Fine looking weapon from a 5 star company.I am a little skeptical about the ammo configuration, seems like an all brass case would be a lot cheaper and reloadable. I am all onboard with the 6.8 caliber

 

[Coyote9]

I looked at the rifle and caliber they plan on changing over to. I can't see any reason that this should be the typical infantryman weapon. Almost all engagements are within 300 meters and this thing boasts performance above 6.5 creedmor.

You get less rounds, less capacity per magazine, and it's heavier. This is completely stupid. For Specops or special warfare missions I understand, but that 6.8x51 has no more armor penetration than a 5.56 when talking about level 4 plates, which is what most combat troops should and do wear.

I disagree with the armor statement,the huge increase in kinetic energy should incapacitate any human target regardless of penetration, The gain against barrier and light vehicle penetration is substantial. I carried an M-14 in the early 70's and it is doable.I agree that the weight should be offset by reductiion of the crazy stupid infantryman loadout they suffer today! The only disadvantage I see is the reduction in ammo carried into the fight

 

[Darqhelmet]

Those are interesting points. I guess my main question to them is going to be, when you're engaged in urban environments, and god forbid it's any sort of domestic urban environment, when is that extended range going to do you any good? I'd like to see the concrete ballistic test on this round. Is the loss of capacity made up for the ability to punch through concrete barriers or bricks. I'd be ok with it then.

I'm just thinking in order to match what the US will have available if anything happens I now have to buy an upper chambered in another caliber.

And mainly to your points, we have precision drones now so maybe they're thinking that conventional battles are a thing of the past and we need precision troops (SOF via SOCOM) to do surgical attacks versus actual combat operations. Glad it's not me rucking around a 6.8 x 51 TWELVE POUND RIFLE. Jesus.

Our 240B/G couldn’t punch through most mud walls we needed the .50’s our 25mm chain guns to do that. Will it bust through cinder block, probably. What’s it going to look like on the other side, spalling, lots and lots of spalling. Which isn’t horrible if you want people taking cover that are inside so you can close the gap and get grenades in the door/window.