At what point could you use deadly force in this video in TX if at all

[TexasRedneck]

Sorry...but I can't get "into" what if scenarios. Way too many variables, and IMO a huge waste of time.

 

[matefrio]

Sorry...but I can't get "into" what if scenarios. Way too many variables, and IMO a huge waste of time.

I did not intend this to be "what if" or "what would you do".

I see it as a learning exercise. It is one thing to see the legal definition of lethal force and another seeing when lethal force is justified or when a situation is very dangerous, heated and emotional yet does not call for it.

As proven on the other form there were at least three TX folk there that thought they could have shot the would be bike thief.

 

[TexasRedneck]

I understand - but as I said, there's so many variables out there that there simply isn't a "right" answer. For example, off-camera might be an accomplice trying to work his way behind me, etc. It's just me - others enjoy it, etc. - so feel free!

 

[Moss_Berg5150]

The answer is simple if you feel like you are in danger of losing your life... or the life of a loved one... then do what you got to do! To sit online and watch videos and try to determine at which point is the right point to shoot someone does not seem very beneficial to me. As Red mentioned... some people like this sort of thing and love to talk about killing gangbangers, terrorists, illegal immigrants, rabbits or whatever... some even long for that chance to put one down. The fact of the matter is that some people get scared if you fart too loud next to them and they will grab for there guns immediately, other don't scare so easily and are able to show a bit more restraint, but most don't want to be put in a position to shoot anyone and will leave the situation before engaging in a debate on when exactly they would have shot someone... again does not seem smart to me. --IMHO

 

[TheDan]

Owner of the bike seems to have more balls than brain. Those three dudes could have easily thrashed him up.
He was lucky they just walked away.

If I were him I would avoid escalation and quietly walk away with my bike and report it to the nearest police station. Hope he did so because he has the video recording also.

Do I sound like a chicken ? Guess so.

You are 100% correct... but! I think standing your ground against punks like this is important. The criminals expect you to just hang your head and slink off. Doing so just enforces their superiority and discourages other law abiding citizens from standing their ground. If everyone stood up to these criminals instead of looking the other way then there'd be fewer of them out there. There were plenty of witnesses around and the risk of catching a beating is worth standing up to pieces of crap like that. Now that action would have been a VERY bad idea if it wasn't such a public place. ..and no, there's no indication that deadly force is needed in that vid. Doesn't mean you can't harass the son of a bitch until the cops show up, tho.

 

[txinvestigator]

The answer is simple if you feel like you are in danger of losing your life... or the life of a loved one... then do what you got to do! To sit online and watch videos and try to determine at which point is the right point to shoot someone does not seem very beneficial to me. As Red mentioned... some people like this sort of thing and love to talk about killing gangbangers, terrorists, illegal immigrants, rabbits or whatever... some even long for that chance to put one down. The fact of the matter is that some people get scared if you fart too loud next to them and they will grab for there guns immediately, other don't scare so easily and are able to show a bit more restraint, but most don't want to be put in a position to shoot anyone and will leave the situation before engaging in a debate on when exactly they would have shot someone... again does not seem smart to me. --IMHO

I really like your post.

 

[Moss_Berg5150]

I really like your post.

Thanks, just trying to do my part... it's important to know the law, but common sense and a good moral compass will protect you also! Pulling my gun is last ditch... becasue the end result will be FINAL, so please don't forget that friends!

 

[APatriot]

The answer is simple if you feel like you are in danger of losing your life... or the life of a loved one... then do what you got to do! To sit online and watch videos and try to determine at which point is the right point to shoot someone does not seem very beneficial to me. As Red mentioned... some people like this sort of thing and love to talk about killing gangbangers, terrorists, illegal immigrants, rabbits or whatever... some even long for that chance to put one down. The fact of the matter is that some people get scared if you fart too loud next to them and they will grab for there guns immediately, other don't scare so easily and are able to show a bit more restraint, but most don't want to be put in a position to shoot anyone and will leave the situation before engaging in a debate on when exactly they would have shot someone... again does not seem smart to me. --IMHO

Agree....discussion simply doesn't muster up to "living it". Pontification < experience.

 

[matefrio]

I started the thread in response to a few TX folks on another gun related forum saying they'd have been justified in shooting the guy with the gold grill under TX law.

I thought it would provide good fodder here to discuss and maybe someone would learn from it.

I guess we are just beating a dead horse now.

 

[TexasRedneck]

I understand your reasoning - but it's one of those things that run counter to the mind-set of many folks, apparently...speaking for myself, I dislike "what-if" situations simply because there are SO many potential variables, and where I've been drawn into 'em in the past, there's always someone popping off with a off-screen possibility that totally negates the original scenario.

 

[Moss_Berg5150]

To the OP... I definatley understand what youre getting at, I just beleive that discussions like that are counter productive. If we were all cops or soldiers it would be one thing, but you got a lot of people out there who go and grab guns waiting on the day that they can put them to use and IMHO these types of discussion posts aid in that mindset. We are by no means trying to discredit your additions to this great board of ours, hell as you can probably tell I love to yap... I just didn't want this post to turn into that mindless rambling you were refering to on the other site. Thanks again for your contribution!

 

[timawa08]

CHL

If the guy start beating you up, of course with a "CLOSED FIST" and he's hitting your FACE, you are subject to defend yourself. It's a life threatening action. Another consideration, if he is started beating you up, with the situation that i mentioned above PLUS if he's BIGGER than you, i suggest you defend yourself. As long as nothing happend, just VERBAL fight, there's nothing you can do. They taught as in CHL to do a VERBAL JUDO first, but if it did not work and started physical contact and your life is in danger, deadly force is necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[txinvestigator]

If the guy start beating you up, of course with a "CLOSED FIST" and he's hitting your FACE, you are subject to defend yourself. It's a life threatening action.

While being struck in the face and head area can certainly cause serious bodily injury or death, not every hitting if the face is always capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. A blanket statement cannot be made that a person hitting you in the face is deadly force.

Another consideration, if he is started beating you up, with the situation that i mentioned above PLUS if he's BIGGER than you, i suggest you defend yourself.

I always suggest that people defend themselves. Sometimes deadly force is justified, sometimes only force is justified.

 

[timawa08]

The video with a crow bar? It's necessary, hit by a crow bar is life threatening. There was a sample story from the CHL class that it started as road rage one of the guy punch the window of the CHL holder guy, broke the window and the CHL guy shot him. The CHL guy won the case, how, coz if a man can break a car window he can surely break someone's skull too. The story happened in Houston.

 

[Moss_Berg5150]

The video with a crow bar? It's necessary, hit by a crow bar is life threatening. There was a sample story from the CHL class that it started as road rage one of the guy punch the window of the CHL holder guy, broke the window and the CHL guy shot him. The CHL guy won the case, how, coz if a man can break a car window he can surely break someone's skull too. The story happened in Houston.

The victim in this video reacted accordingly, they were not "struck" with the crowbar and they obviously had a children in the vehicle which is why it was more important to get the hell out of dodge. It was more important to flee quickly than to try and get a gun out to shoot someone who had not necesarily threatened their life... he had only been screaming and attacking the vehicle... I now what your thinking though... why carry a gun if you can't use it huh?!?!?!

 

[ZX9RCAM]

The car is a pretty large projectile....even at slow speeds can cause major damge.


Officer, I was trying to get away & keep my kids safe & accidentally hit him......







.....three times.

 

[TexasRedneck]

.....three times.

The skid marks?

He told me to come back and try it again.

There - fixed!

 

[timawa08]

Im not trying to start an argument, I just want to educate myself. You mean "not necessarily threatened their life" when not just once but many times this guy hit the car and when they tried to get away they followed them? "... I know what your thinking though... why carry a gun if you can't use it huh?!?!?!" That's your opinion but that's not my thought. Here's what i think, if it's me and my family inside that car, i will try to "get the hell out of dodge" but he followed the car like what he did i would use deadly force because i fear for my life and my family's. Would you think about that if he's just obsessed with your car and not wanted to hurt you and your family in that moment he followed you? So if someone break in to your house would you think he's only there to steal something and not hurt you? Would you fear for your life and shoot him or try to "get the hell out of the house"? PLease anyone is welcome to educate me.

 

[TexasRedneck]

It's wise to drive away if at all possible. Now, if blocked in by traffic - that's another story, but let me assure you - you do NOT want to use deadly force unless there's simply no other way to resolve the issue. Period. Defending yourself against gun/murder charges is time consuming and VERY expensive. And what if it's determined that you could have avoided shooting him by a jury? You will NOT like the end result, my friend - trust me!
I will retreat where possible, even in my own home - because I'm aware of the potential consequences.

 

[Texas1911]

Im not trying to start an argument, I just want to educate myself. You mean "not necessarily threatened their life" when not just once but many times this guy hit the car and when they tried to get away they followed them? "... I know what your thinking though... why carry a gun if you can't use it huh?!?!?!" That's your opinion but that's not my thought. Here's what i think, if it's me and my family inside that car, i will try to "get the hell out of dodge" but he followed the car like what he did i would use deadly force because i fear for my life and my family's. Would you think about that if he's just obsessed with your car and not wanted to hurt you and your family in that moment he followed you? So if someone break in to your house would you think he's only there to steal something and not hurt you? Would you fear for your life and shoot him or try to "get the hell out of the house"? PLease anyone is welcome to educate me.

The point is that you have to be able to back-up your decision and convince others that weren't there that it was justified. There is no clear cut measure of a defensive shooting versus murder, it's vague, and we all have to set our threshold. If I'm on the ground and someone is bashing my skull in with a fist I am going to shoot them, from my perspective they have exceeded a defensive threshold and are attempting to cause serious bodily harm. If I am in a moving vehicle and someone is throwing punches at me, I am going to make every attempt to drive off, but if I have no avenue of escape I will defend myself with the force necessary.

The best option is always to avoid a gun fight, but if you must ... be swift and be direct. There isn't alot of "what if" when things go downhill ... it's mostly reactionary and largely primal.