Better off to carry with none in the chamber than not at all?

[Bozz10mm]

I really wouldn't expect or want someone who just bought their first pistol, and recently got their CHL, to be carrying at condition one. It takes time to become comfortable and learn safe habits. If you aren't comfortable and confident with it, you probably aren't as safe as you should be either. Each individual needs to progress at their own pace and not just jump off in to the deep end before you can swim, so to speak.

I didn't carry with a round chambered for several months, but I have no problem with it now. I still would rather have a gun without a round chambered than to have no gun at all.

 

[txinvestigator]

I understand the vast benefits of carrying with one in the chamber and drawbacks to carrying with an empty chamber.

I understand the internal safeties that guns have and what a proper holster looks like.

Say you have a friend/family member though, that just will not carry with one in the chamber, overall, generally speaking, all things being equal, are they better off not carrying at all or carrying with no round in the chamber and training to chamber a round as needed?

* This isn't about what method is better, I acknowledged which is better. This is about carrying with no round chambered vs not carrying at all.

It is my opinion that a person facing such a decision is not mentally prepared, much less physically, to use deadly force. Such a person will never train going from holster, racking the slide to fire, nearly enough to develop the automatic response. It is moot. Does this person go to the range and practice with the gun in a chamber empty condition, draw, chamber and then fire? Then put the gun back in a non-chambered condition and do it again? Over and over and over.....?

I find it interesting that some people argue that they would never carry a gun with a safety because they might not be able to work it in a stress situation; however, others think they can remember to chamber a round in the same situation.

 

[txinvestigator]

Absolutely.
I carry in condition 3 (mag in, us chambered) and can rack the slide as I remove it from my CHL holster.

Uh huh, how often do you practice that?

 

[breakingcontact]

Does this person go to the range and practice with the gun in a chamber empty condition, draw, chamber and then fire? Then put the gun back in a non-chambered condition and do it again? Over and over and over.....?

I find it interesting that some people argue that they would never carry a gun with a safety because they might not be able to work it in a stress situation; however, others think they can remember to chamber a round in the same situation.

These were some of my concerns as well. My advice was "carry however you will but you have to train for it".

I suppose this can be a start then perhaps said individual can move on to better carry techniques as they get more familiar and confident with carrying.

My main concern is that a person carrying a gun with nothing in the chamber, is counting on having time, distance, both hands and on and on. I am also more concerned about a gun grab if no round is chambered.

So that puts them at a disadvantage in many situations.

Not having a gun puts them at a disadvantage in all situations.

 

[txinvestigator]

These were some of my concerns as well. My advice was "carry however you will but you have to train for it".

I suppose this can be a start then perhaps said individual can move on to better carry techniques as they get more familiar and confident with carrying.

My main concern is that a person carrying a gun with nothing in the chamber, is counting on having time, distance, both hands and on and on. I am also more concerned about a gun grab if no round is chambered.

So that puts them at a disadvantage in many situations.

Not having a gun puts them at a disadvantage in all situations.

I think that line of thinking is wrong. You are missing the mental component. They won't train. Forget time, distance, two hands and all of that. They won't even REMEMBER to rack the slide, because they won't train.

My point is that a person like that thinks that carrying a gun, in and of itself, is some magic shield. They are not mentally prepared to administer the horrific violence that a shooting situation is. If they train enough to be proficient at racking the slide as they draw, then the fear of chambered carry will likely resolve itself.

I have taken people who do not train as they carry, placed them under stress, and watched them fall apart when trying to shoot from holstered umder stress.



An analogy: I'm going to go down to the local College football game and kick field goals for the team. Having never kicked after a snap and having onrushing people trying to tear my head off won't matter. I have kicked a field goal or two down at the local park.

 

[robertc1024]

I've thought a lot about this - in the past. I can see no reason to not have a round in the chamber. In an emergency, why would you want to have to rack a slide, flip a safety off, and pull a trigger? Or even no safety - racking the slide would take longer in time than the other two.

 

[majormadmax]

Wasn't it the Israeli security guys that train with a rack and shoot style?

I have never met an Israeli who carried that way; but from Wikipedia: "In the United States and Canada, the term "Israeli Method" is generally believed to refer to the carrying of a semiautomatic pistol with its chamber empty. However, the carrying of the chamber empty served a safety consideration, rather than a tactical consideration. In past decades, due to severe budget constraints, IDF purchased and issued large quantities of antiquated sidearms, the mechanical safety of which was questionable. In recent decades, as budget concerns are increasingly alleviated and more modern, standardized sidearms are issued, this mode of carry is increasingly being phased out. It should also be noted that specialized personnel, such as police and special forces units, have typically carried newer and safer firearms, and have rarely used this mode of carry."

I would not recommend it for a novice shooter, too great of a chance that the individual could shoot themselves trying to chamber a round or worse yet, the delay could result in the weapon being taken away from and used against them.

 

[txinvestigator]

I will add that I believe Israeli carry is for advanced practitioners, not beginners.

 

[breakingcontact]

I think that line of thinking is wrong. You are missing the mental component. They won't train. Forget time, distance, two hands and all of that. They won't even REMEMBER to rack the slide, because they won't train.

My point is that a person like that thinks that carrying a gun, in and of itself, is some magic shield. They are not mentally prepared to administer the horrific violence that a shooting situation is. If they train enough to be proficient at racking the slide as they draw, then the fear of chambered carry will likely resolve itself.

I have taken people who do not train as they carry, placed them under stress, and watched them fall apart when trying to shoot from holstered umder stress.



An analogy: I'm going to go down to the local College football game and kick field goals for the team. Having never kicked after a snap and having onrushing people trying to tear my head off won't matter. I have kicked a field goal or two down at the local park.

I understand this.

I like guns with thumb safeties. I get grief for it but I train with them and while in competitions or the range ive never, not taken the safety off while drawing. I train for it.

I agree that Israeli carry is something that must be trained for and I agree with the logic that it could lead to more confidence to carry in an objectively better way, but I guess the Glock fans could say the same with me and my thumb safeties.

 

[breakingcontact]

I will add that I believe Israeli carry is for advanced practitioners, not beginners.

I agree as it adds several more motions and potential issues to the draw stroke.

My main point though. Is a person better off carrying this way (for now) than not at all?

 

[breakingcontact]

I see a lot of pix online of how guys carry (no homo). They are high on concealment, low on having a grip available to actually grab.

Id love to see most actually draw their guns and do it well and quickly.

Are they better off not carrying? Same with pocket carry. To me pocket carry is a total mess...but they do have a gun.

 

[majormadmax]

My main point though. Is a person better off carrying this way (for now) than not at all?

Obviously having a gun is better than not having one, but optimally one should carry a weapon in full preparedness to use it. Adding the time and added complexity of having to chamber a round is not efficient. It's the same reason that my main carry weapon (a Springfield XD) doesn't have safeties that require extra steps to engage...

 

[txinvestigator]

I see a lot of pix online of how guys carry (no homo). They are high on concealment, low on having a grip available to actually grab.

Id love to see most actually draw their guns and do it well and quickly.

Are they better off not carrying? Same with pocket carry. To me pocket carry is a total mess...but they do have a gun.

And if they don't practice, they are in for a surprise when they have to draw.

And understand, I am not telling you that your friend is better off either way...I am telling you it doesn't matter, for them.

Also understand that having a gun in deep concealment is different that carrying an unchambered gun.

You seem to want it to be OK for your friend to carry unchambered.... It is Just don't expect the person to be able to do much. A bad guy sees a gun, he does not know if it is loaded or not.

 

[txinvestigator]

I agree as it adds several more motions and potential issues to the draw stroke.

My main point though. Is a person better off carrying this way (for now) than not at all?

You are asking the wrong question

Guns are not shields that keep bad people away.
Is the mind set of such a person one that even allow them use the gun?

 

[breakingcontact]

Obviously having a gun is better than not having one, but optimally one should carry a weapon in full preparedness to use it. Adding the time and added complexity of having to chamber a round is not efficient. It's the same reason that my main carry weapon (a Springfield XD) doesn't have safeties that require extra steps to engage...

"Extra steps" I opened myself up to no thumb safety crowd.

I agree with having the mental readiness to use the gun being vital. Just yesterday some guy half blocked my car off in a parking lot and started yelling at me from a truck from the passenger seat (traffic all around, nowhere to go), I crack my window to hear what the fool is yelling about while I have my other hand on my gun.

He was just trying to drum up business for his dent removal service and wanted me to take him up on it...but what if he jumped out of his truck and rushed my car? Id have had just a few seconds to respond which requires being mentally ready and being able to get the gun into action quickly as well.

 

[breakingcontact]

You are asking the wrong question

Guns are not shields that keep bad people away.
Is the mind set of such a person one that even allow them use the gun?

Im not sure if I understand what you are getting at? Im asking the wrong question how?

You are implying that anyone who will not carry in a preferable way is not willing to use the gun?

Im not tracking.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I think the more important point to emphasize with individuals, when this subject comes up, is this. If a person does not feel "safe" carrying with a round in the chamber:

• It can only be because of a total lack of knowledge of their firearm (such as the presence of internal safety mechanisms)
• It can only be because of a total lack of knowledge in how a firearm is discharged (they probably don't understand that most guns don't just "go off" on their own)
• It can only be because of a total lack of confidence in their own abilities to safely employ and discharge a firearm

Considering that, in their current state, they are a liability to themselves and everyone else. Even though I know this won't happen much of the time, being made aware of that lack of knowledge and proficiency should be a reality check that lights a fire under their butts to seek out that knowledge and gain that proficiency. If they don't seek to improve that lack of knowledge and confidence, well, nothing else really matters, and certainly not the manner in which they may choose to carry their gun. At that point, if they still choose to carry (regardless of the manner of carry), they are taking one step towards protecting themselves, but ultimately they are still banking on pure luck to save their lives, whether they realize it or not.

 

[TwinGlocks]

Condition 3

 

[breakingcontact]

I think the more important point to emphasize with individuals, when this subject comes up, is this. If a person does not feel "safe" carrying with a round in the chamber:

• It can only be because of a total lack of knowledge of their firearm (such as the presence of internal safety mechanisms)
• It can only be because of a total lack of knowledge in how a firearm is discharged (they probably don't understand that most guns don't just "go off" on their own)
• It can only be because of a total lack of confidence in their own abilities to safely employ and discharge a firearm

In this particular instance it is due to having a less than ideal holster due to physical limitations. So with this holster I am against carrying with one in the chamber as it does not protect the trigger well.

I could promote bag carry where a proper holster could be installed but then you have off body carry which is another mess. See what im getting at?

Im sitting with my Bladetech OWB on right now but not everyone is willing or able to carry like that.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

I see a lot of pix online of how guys carry (no homo). They are high on concealment, low on having a grip available to actually grab.

Id love to see most actually draw their guns and do it well and quickly.

Are they better off not carrying? Same with pocket carry. To me pocket carry is a total mess...but they do have a gun.

Deep concealment like that carries its own set of problems, like how quick it is to access. Same problem with concealing in extreme cold weather. You either safely practice drawing that way or you adjust your carry method to make the ccw more easy to access, and practice that way too. I would say in that situation, where the firearm is ready to go, you are absolutely better off than carrying with one not in the chamber or not carrying at all.

If you are proficient at racking the slide, then I would say you are absolutely better off carrying without one in the chamber than not at all, but it would be better to have one in the chamber.

There are some situations where you might carry this way. Maybe you want to carry at a place or a job that is not too friendly with concealed carry, and where you think the chances are very low of you actually needing to use your weapon, you want to deep conceal, say in a pocket, and you want to reduce the chances to zero of having an AD. Maybe you work in a very physical environment, a lot of banging into things, lifting, moving around, and you just want to not worry about the remote possibility of having an AD.

I get that there is a mental component to these situations and possible holster issues, but they are entirely realistic for most folks.

Also, there are a lot of unknowns about potential self-defense encounters and mindset and other variables, but I highly doubt that most normal folks who successfully used their firearms to defend themselves had to train like James Yeager to get there.


And pocket carry is one of the most easy and convenient ways to carry, especially here in Texas where you can wear shorts year around. Perfectly safe and easy to draw.