Thoughts on .380 JHP?

[ShootingTheBull]

So if I saw all the videos currently on the .380 ammo and TCP, none of the ammo you've tested thus far is optimum.....

Correct. The .380 platform is a difficult one, because it sits at a crossroads where JHP's may not penetrate deep enough, but FMJ's penetrate too deeply, so it's hard to choose a good solid round. With my XDS, I can use Gold Dots or PDX1 or Critical Defense and know that I'm going to get 12 to 16 inches of penetration and full expansion -- I mean, it's pretty much a given.

But the .380 ... and especially a short-barrel .380... that's a lot tougher. And that's why I'm going on the quest -- I want to find what the optimal round is. In my mind, it's going to have to be a round that expands just a little, because the more a round expands, the more it acts like a "parachute" and slows the bullet down to a stop. A round that expands huge, like the PDX1, will have correspondingly awfully short penetration. So I want the opposite -- a round that expands mildly, thus allowing as much penetration as possible -- and if I can find one that delivers a consistent 12", well, that's going to be about the best you can expect from the micro-pistol caliber.

So far I can tell you that the best performers have been the Gold Dots and the Hydra Shoks (Hydra Shok video isn't up yet, but it'll be up in the next few days).

Once I find enough suitable candidates that perform decently in bare gelatin, I'll take them (the "semifinalists") into the next round of testing, which will be the 4-layer-denim test. After all, it's probably not all that frequent that people are called upon to defend themselves against naked attackers, so the 4-layer test is quite important, but that's for later -- if a round can't even do decently in bare gelatin, there's not much point in testing for denim, y'know?

I have high hopes for the FTX and XTP rounds, as from what I gather they expand quite mildly. I've ordered some standard-SAAMI-pressure Buffalo Bore, some DoubleTap, some Critical Defense, and I have a box of HPR. Critical Defense uses the FTX bullet, and the HPR is using the XTP, so I am optimistic that they will make it to the semifinals.

 

[General Zod]

Thoughts on .380 JHP? I sure wouldn't want to get shot with it.

 

[ShootingTheBull]

Hornady CD is what we are running in the .380s. They feed reliably too, which seems to be one of the more critical factors running JHP .380.

First off, having not had an opportunity to test them specifically, I will say that I think you've probably made a fine choice; I am quite optimistic about how the CD will do. I just wish I could find some! They're back-ordered everywhere.

Second, yes, the Gold Dots did decently. The average penetration was close to good enough. That's not FBI standard though; the FBI demands all rounds go at least 12", and that's not what I got, but ... you know, any micro pistol is going to be a compromise, obviously, and if all I can get is 11" from the tiny $199 TCP, well, that may just have to be good enough. But, I continue to look, as I'm hoping someone out there has fine-tuned their ammo for the ultimate combination of penetration and expansion.

I've heard quite good things about Fiocchi Extrema, which also uses the XTP bullet; I think you're probably good to go with most any XTP or FTX round. I'd love to get my hands on some Zombie Max or Critical Defense for the next round of testing!

 

[ShootingTheBull]

Wow! Excellent video, and kudos for using a good test protocol and standard!!

Thank you very much!

I only just watched that one, but do you have a video explaining the reasoning behind the FBI standards, and gelatin testing? I imagine there are a lot of mouth breathers on Youtube who probably blast you for your content.

I've been running one of the largest filmmaker forums on the web for the last decade, so I'm well used to being blasted -- regardless of what you do, someone, on one side or the other, will complain...

I wrote up a blog post with some of the reasoning -- my videos run a tad long, but if you think a video explaining the purposes of gel testing would be watched and useful, I can work one up.

I did a comparison of the ClearBallistics gel against genuine 10% ordnance gelatin -- I wanted to know how close ClearBallistics comes to the "real stuff"... and in that video I think I explained a little bit about what we're looking for and why. I also comment a bit on it throughout the various ammo test videos.

In my mind, having a clearly defined standard, and -- perhaps most importantly -- a repeatable, sound test medium, is what is most important, because that means that anyone, anywhere, could duplicate the results and verify the methodology -- and furthermore, that people using the same materials could add to the database of knowledge without confusing it with different variables. There are so many tests out there, but some use homemade gel, some use meat, some use Sim-Test, one guy uses diluted sim-test, some use ClearGel, some use water, some use water jugs ... and most all of them are just so different from the others that it's really difficult to correlate them.

That's why my first video was an attempt to correlate ClearBallistics gel with genuine Vyse 10% ordnance gelatin. I wanted to know how this gel performed compared to the decades-old standard, to see if the results would be comparable, and it was actually really close, so I'm comfortable using the clear gel (for handgun rounds).

I could probably literally do a two-hour video on ballistics gel, and I'm sure few would want to watch that(!) so -- if you think there's a definite need for specific subjects, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Thanks for watching!

 

[V-Tach]

Yes, your denim test will be interesting.....

What works here in South Texas during the summer may not work as well in North Dakota in the winter......

I also agree the videos are well done.....

 

[subseashooter]

I'd be more than happy to donate some DRT .380 ammo for testing. I have played with it some, and it resides in my and several friends carry guns, sure would be nice to see what it actually does....

 

[zenfly]

I'm new here and don't want to make waves but why would anyone choose a .380 when there are 9mm and even .40s that are not much bigger..
Granted it's better than no gun but in those furious few seconds you may not be lucky enough for the bullet placement required to stop a threat and slowing one down that may have a .357 or worse just doesn't work for me.. I've carried a bobbed 1911 .45 for years but now it's a skinny little Walther PPS 9mm in a Supertuck IWB.. T-shirt and shorts are no problem and I'm only 155lbs..

I want to share this post I copied from another forum..

Heres a little Real World info about new fast 9mm loads with bullets that expand over .60" from police and defense forums.. Ask anyone who has shot someone with a 9mm 115 gr. HP traveling 1300 fps or faster. There are several thousand Border Patrol officers, Feds & LEO who swear the old Fed. BPLE 9mm was a "virtual death ray". The BP only went to the .40 as a managerial decision which was stupid (as are most Federal decisions). Many almost cried as they loved the BPLE round so much.

A former Captain of the IL State Police has written on many websites that during his tenure there they started using first the Fed. BPLE & later the Win. 9mm 115 gr. +p+ and that he NEVER saw a case where if failed to stop someone with a COM hit in hundreds of shootings. Now why do you think that was? The cops in IL are better shooters?

For those who have seen it, something happens at 1300 fps with certain handgun bullets that is almost magical. It cannot be gauged in a lab but it sure can in the street. I would take a 9mm loaded with 115 gr. +p+ over a .45 ACP with HP's any day. They work better. What I'm talking about is whats most effective in stopping a threat as quickly as possible, and thus increasing your chances of surviving a bad situation. Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm @ 1000fps, and he was still able to fight back killing agents. It has been proven that the lack of proper expansion and penitration can cost you your life and I never considered a 9 until this new ammo came about and once again the other 9mm advantage is the price of military practice ammo..

 

[subseashooter]

I carry in .380 because I like my PPK/S.

And the P238 that several of my friends carry is GREAT for those with weaker hands.

There is definitely a place in this world for the .380, not everyone is a 25 year old body building cop that doesn't mind a 78# recoil spring.

 

[Shorts]

StB, we seem to have the best good luck finding it on the shelf at Cabela's. I recall being able to grab a box each visit. So I will try to swing by this week and if if they've some I'll grab a box for you too.


Can I ask that we not turn this thread into a caliber war? Folks often have handguns in various calibers, myself included. What splits the difference in carrying the .380 or carrying bigger calibers are the details of how the gun works and how the gun carries. I am pretty certain that those that carry a .380 know there are ballistically better cartridges out there. But that is not the determining factor for carry. So please, let's not drag this thread off topic.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Tuned in. I carry a Kahr P380 from time to time and I carry Gold Dots in it.

I do tend to carry more magazines when carrying the 380.


An honest Government has no fear of an armed population.

 

[txinvestigator]

I'm new here and don't want to make waves but why would anyone choose a .380 when there are 9mm and even .40s that are not much bigger..

As an instructor I will tell you that it is just not that simple. I carry .380. Want to get shot with it? I carry the sig P238. It is extremely accurate. It does not want to crawl out of my hand like small 9s, and especially .40. I hate the trigger on many small 9s.

But I would not put that on you. You should carry what you shoot well.

When I do it carry the .380, I carry the .45.
And the anecdotal evidence from whatever sources regarding 9 vs .45 is just that, anecdotal. I can relate story after story of people taking multiple hits with 9 and continuing their attack. I can do the same for most other calibers.

Look at the FBI testing. With modern defense ammo you will be well served with most calibers, including the .380.

 

[M. Sage]

Thank you very much!

I've been running one of the largest filmmaker forums on the web for the last decade, so I'm well used to being blasted -- regardless of what you do, someone, on one side or the other, will complain...

I wrote up a blog post with some of the reasoning -- my videos run a tad long, but if you think a video explaining the purposes of gel testing would be watched and useful, I can work one up.

I did a comparison of the ClearBallistics gel against genuine 10% ordnance gelatin -- I wanted to know how close ClearBallistics comes to the "real stuff"... and in that video I think I explained a little bit about what we're looking for and why. I also comment a bit on it throughout the various ammo test videos.

In my mind, having a clearly defined standard, and -- perhaps most importantly -- a repeatable, sound test medium, is what is most important, because that means that anyone, anywhere, could duplicate the results and verify the methodology -- and furthermore, that people using the same materials could add to the database of knowledge without confusing it with different variables. There are so many tests out there, but some use homemade gel, some use meat, some use Sim-Test, one guy uses diluted sim-test, some use ClearGel, some use water, some use water jugs ... and most all of them are just so different from the others that it's really difficult to correlate them.

That's why my first video was an attempt to correlate ClearBallistics gel with genuine Vyse 10% ordnance gelatin. I wanted to know how this gel performed compared to the decades-old standard, to see if the results would be comparable, and it was actually really close, so I'm comfortable using the clear gel (for handgun rounds).

I could probably literally do a two-hour video on ballistics gel, and I'm sure few would want to watch that(!) so -- if you think there's a definite need for specific subjects, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Thanks for watching!

I would just like to see a decent overview of the whys of using gelatin vs so many other, less-accurate testing methods. So many people pop up and say "well, that's a piece of gelatin, and people aren't made of that!" Folks can miss the point so completely sometimes, hahah.

I watched the comparison video and appreciated it! The 5%ish variation you found between the two mediums is small enough that I would ignore it outright, since you'll get that from bullet to bullet (we saw that on the video you posted here) and probably from lot to lot with gelatin.

Repeatable and sound medium is absolutely necessary. If a test's results aren't relevant and repeatable, they're worthless. But you already understand that.

I'll be checking out more of your videos as they come along, that's for sure. Thanks for making them!

I'm new here and don't want to make waves but why would anyone choose a .380 when there are 9mm and even .40s that are not much bigger..
Granted it's better than no gun but in those furious few seconds you may not be lucky enough for the bullet placement required to stop a threat and slowing one down that may have a .357 or worse just doesn't work for me.. I've carried a bobbed 1911 .45 for years but now it's a skinny little Walther PPS 9mm in a Supertuck IWB.. T-shirt and shorts are no problem and I'm only 155lbs..

You know everybody who can credibly claim to be an expert on the subject of gunshot wounds disagrees with what you just said about "bigger" handgun calibers, right? Handguns poke holes in people, and the hole poked by a .45 isn't significantly different from the hole poked by a .380. You drag two people into an ER, each shot with one of those calibers, and a doctor with experience treating gun shot wounds wouldn't be able to tell you who was shot with what without removing the bullets and measuring.

I want to share this post I copied from another forum..

Heres a little Real World info about new fast 9mm loads with bullets that expand over .60" from police and defense forums.. Ask anyone who has shot someone with a 9mm 115 gr. HP traveling 1300 fps or faster. There are several thousand Border Patrol officers, Feds & LEO who swear the old Fed. BPLE 9mm was a "virtual death ray". The BP only went to the .40 as a managerial decision which was stupid (as are most Federal decisions). Many almost cried as they loved the BPLE round so much.

A former Captain of the IL State Police has written on many websites that during his tenure there they started using first the Fed. BPLE & later the Win. 9mm 115 gr. +p+ and that he NEVER saw a case where if failed to stop someone with a COM hit in hundreds of shootings. Now why do you think that was? The cops in IL are better shooters?

No handgun round is a "death ray". Expansion over .60" isn't a big deal given the fact that handgun bullets push tissue out of the way on their way through a body.

Expansion in a handgun bullet is there primarily (in the case of old-style non-sharp-edged "mushroom" expansion, I'd say entirely) to limit penetration.

For those who have seen it, something happens at 1300 fps with certain handgun bullets that is almost magical.

Such as...?

Look, 1300 ft/sec isn't enough velocity for anything "magical" to happen when you're talking about something the size of a handgun bullet. If you want "magic" you need 2000 ft/sec or more. Then you'll get some interesting secondary effects.

I will say that a 12 gauge slug at 1300 will have some of the same "mojo" as a rifle bullet at over 2K, but that's because the thing's got so much frontal area.

It cannot be gauged in a lab but it sure can in the street.

If it can't be measured in a lab, then it probably doesn't exist... We're talking fairly simple physics here, there's no such thing as magic.

I would take a 9mm loaded with 115 gr. +p+ over a .45 ACP with HP's any day. They work better. What I'm talking about is whats most effective in stopping a threat as quickly as possible, and thus increasing your chances of surviving a bad situation.

Wait, you said you wanted .60" of expansion because that was extra-good, but I've seen .45 loads that will expand to very close to an inch (and still penetrate to FBI standards). Or was it the velocity that was too low to contribute to the bullet's effectiveness...?

Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm @ 1000fps, and he was still able to fight back killing agents.

Do you realize that the "shot that failed" and lead to scientific evaluations of ammunition was in fact a 115 grain 9mm bullet? That stuff is rated around 1200 ft/sec, very close to your "magical" ideal.

It has been proven that the lack of proper expansion and penitration can cost you your life and I never considered a 9 until this new ammo came about and once again the other 9mm advantage is the price of military practice ammo..

It's been proven that poor shot placement and lack of penetration are what can cost you your life. You can have all the expansion you want, but if the bullet doesn't reach vital organs or structures, you pretty much might as well have not fired it.

If you want more expansion without sacrificing penetration, go to a heavier bullet in the same caliber.

 

[EandGWZ]

Hornady Critical Defense hands down.

 

[robocop10mm]

I love it that supposedly educated people talk out of the side of their necks when they get into ballistics. The same people will say the .380 does not have sufficient velocity to expand a hollow point bullet so why bother. Your "friend" is speaking from 20 year old information. Modern bullets are FAR better than those of 20 years ago. Penetration is a product of mass. Granted a 90 grain .380 bullet does not have much mass (when compared to a .45 ACP). Modern bullets like Speer Gold Dots will expand AND retain the mass needed to give adequate penetration for unprotected frontal shots. A .380 will NEVER be sufficient for extreme angle shots where the bullet must pass through an arm to get to the chest. It will also not be the best for a targer that presents intermediate barriers like a leather jacket.

To say "only FMJ's are adequate" is just stupid. Round nose FMJ's have a very nasty habit of veering off course in the target. This is true of the venerable .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ also. If one is so inclined to carry FMJ's, make it flat points. Personally, I do not feel there is anything wrong with a good "controlled expansion" hollow point like the Gold Dot.

 

[Dullandtasteless]

I'm new here and don't want to make waves but why would anyone choose a .380 when there are 9mm and even .40s that are not much bigger

My most often carried is a sig nightmare 1911 in .45, but there are times when I just can't carry it and wear what I want. I can carry my p238 in the little zipper pocket in my board shorts in a homemade holster. I know that the .380 is not my .45 but if I'm wearing shorts because its 100 degrees out, any BGs are unlikely to be wearing heavy carharts with heavy denim liner zipped into it. Besides my pistol any pistol any caliber is just to get me to my truck where the fight stoppers live.
Mass a second thought I do have a P938 that fits any where my P238 fits, so why not carry it instead? I shoot the P238 better! That could make a difference.

 

[stdreb27]

Resurrecting a zombie thread here, but hopefully because I have some relevant info to the topic at hand. I've recently been conducting a lot of ammo tests on the Taurus TCP, trying to find the elusive, mystical, ideal hollowpoint round that will penetrate "enough" but not overpenetrate, and once enough penetration has been achieved, it will also expand as large as possible.

I've been posting the videos to my Youtube channel (ShootingTheBull410). So far I've tested Speer Gold Dots, Remington Golden Sabers, Remington UMC, Winchester Ranger-T, Winchester PDX1, and Federal Hydra-Shok; I also have a box of HPR's for my next round of tests, and have ordered DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore, and Hornady Critical Defense (but man, those are tough to locate, they're on backorder everywhere!)

My testing is a little different than those I've seen done so far; normally it seems like all the tests I can find use only one shot -- and to me, that's not enough to get a good representative idea of performance, as any individual shot can actually vary quite a bit from the next. I use five shots, which is what the FBI does, as it's all you can reasonably fit in a block of ballistic gel.

To those interested, here's a link to the first video; you can click my other videos or search for "Ammo Quest" to find the rest. Hope some of you find it helpful!

This may be dumb but why is 10 inches bad?
When you're sitting there with the block, that's half way through you, from the side. Seems like if that was a front facing shot that would be plenty of penetration without producing an exit?

I only ask this in the interest of learning.

 

[Younggun]

Gelatin is not quite the same as an actual body. No bone or any other obstructions. Certain tissues may have a higher density than the gel. Some individuals may have 10" of tissue before you even get to a vital organ.


There are a million "what ifs". Hell, 12" may not e enough either, but 12" is about how for something would need to got to get my heart if I were shot from the side.

 

[stdreb27]

Gelatin is not quite the same as an actual body. No bone or any other obstructions. Certain tissues may have a higher density than the gel. Some individuals may have 10" of tissue before you even get to a vital organ.


There are a million "what ifs". Hell, 12" may not e enough either, but 12" is about how for something would need to got to get my heart if I were shot from the side.

Lol I didn't think about fat people.

So what is considered good?

 

[Shorts]

Lol I didn't think about fat people.

So what is considered good?

I gathered from the vid that FBI specs 12" of penetration for the .380.

 

[subseashooter]

I gathered from the vid that FBI specs 12" of penetration for the .380.

12" of penetration for any caliber.