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Why you shouldn't search with a weapon-mounted light on a handgun - Massad Ayoob

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  • Sasquatch

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    I'll differ with Mas assumptions here.

    1.) If I'm on my property, the likelihood I get charged with a felony for aiming a firearm at an intruder is next to nil. The likelihood I'd even get more than a mild suggestion not to is nil, because I don't like in a commie shithole state. If its dark, and you're trespassing, especially out here in the country - just getting a gun pointed in your general direction should be the least of your worries.

    2.) I said it before, but I'll say it again for the slow kids or those who didn't see it before - you *do*not*have*to*point*the*gun*at*something*to*illuminate*it - especially indoors. You can bounce the light off the floor, off the wall, or off the ceiling and illuminate things, without pointing your gun at it. Mas talks about this - then says "but your instinct is to point the gun at a person if you see it" - no shit - If I'm searching a building as just me, myself and I - I'm searching MY property. I know who is and is not allowed to be there. I can ID them in a fraction of a second. That means I know who is *not* supposed to be there in that same time - if you're in my place or on my property when its dark enough I need the light - you're damn skippy right I'm going to point my gun at you and we're going to have a serious chat, at the very least. Not going to jail for it either.

    If I'm LE or security - I've been called to investigate an intruder - I have reason to believe that anyone lurking about in the dark does NOT have a right to be there, and thus I can reasonably articulate WHY I pointed a gun at them - I have reason to believe that they are committing a felony IE burglary. If they can prove they have a right to be there, ok, no harm no foul. No one's going to jail unless someone gets shot that doesn't need shooting. Someone *may* need to change their pants, but lessons will be learned.

    3.) Nothing precludes you from utilizing BOTH a weapon mounted light, and a hand held light. You can do both. I've done it. You can actually brighten things up by activating both lights, if you need more punch than one light alone gives you. Kind of like turning the high beams on on your car. You can always drop the hand held light if you need to.

    4.) The benefits of a weapon mounted light are numerous. I can use one hand to both control the pistol AND activate the light if I need it, while keeping my other hand free for other tasks - such as grasping the arm of my child, opening a door, carrying someone / something, dialing 9-1-1 on my cell phone, etc. Then there is another little, slight benefit, few people talk about. Lights = muzzle weights. Your gun isn't going to be as snappy recoiling, and will return to rest easier, because you've got 2-4 ounces on the nose of the gun helping keep the muzzle down.

    5.) IF I am in a professional situation that requires me to search a building - IE law enforcement or private security - I damn sure will be using my weapon mounted light and not a hand held light because I can have TWO hands on my gun to shoot, unless I have to manipulate something with my off hand, which, aw geez, I covered above. I still don't have to point the gun at something to light it up, but I damn sure can if it looks like a threat. I'm probably only going to jail at that point if I wind up shooting someone that didn't need shooting. Once again - if I'm supposed to be there, and they aren't - getting a gun pointed at them with a flashlight attached is low on the list of bad things that can happen to them. Show me the police officer clearing a building without their gun in their hand, I'll show you a person who should be selling shoes at Al's Discount Boot Bin instead of wearing a badge. His / her / its survival chances are a lot higher schlepping shoes to fat chicks, than wandering around dark buildings looking for badguys without their gun out and ready.

    6.) God forbid you have to shoot someone - your going to be more accurate with a solid two hand grip on the gun, than with one hand on a flashlight, and one on the pistol. Even using the Harries technique with hands back to back to brace the gun - your recoil control isn't going to be as good, so your follow up shots won't be as quick or likely as accurate as if you have a firm two handed grip on your gun. Even under the best circumstances, the hit rate in the average police or citizen defender shooting isn't great - why handicap yourself unnecessarily because of the slight chance someone will get their feels hurt because you pointed a scary gun at them, while they were trespassing / burglarizing your place, etc?

    7.) If I'm using a long gun to search shit at night, I am using a weapon mounted light, period. I guess you could bastardize the already retarded Center Axis Relock bullshit, and use the crook of your support arm to try supporting the muzzle end of your long gun, while you have your trusty 6P in hand - you're still aiming a gun at something at that point, and you're just being retarded about it. If you are NOT using a white light (or IR + night vision, if you're a rich bitch night ninja) and searching in the dark with a long gun, you're doing it wrong and probably going to shoot someone or something that doesn't need shot by being startled, more than the person using a white light properly. And again - even with a long gun - you don't have to point the gun at what you're looking at to illuminate them - use splash illumination off the floor / wall / ceiling, etc.

    Mas has a lot of good information, but he's not infallable, and I think he's flat wrong on the notion of weapon lights. He wants to bring *hunting* with a scoped rifle in as a corrolarry on the use of lights. That's a big jump. If I'm clearing a dark building, I don't need magnification, but I need *light* to ID someone. A telescopic sight isn't going to ID someone if it's pointed at their feet but a white light will give me enough info to let me know if its something I probably SHOULD be pointing a gun at. Am I going to bumble around with my gun pointed at *my* feet, with my hand held light and wind up behind the curve if a burglar - who could well be armed themselves - has their gun already in hand and pointed at me? Nope - I can get a shot off from low ready or high ready a lot faster than if its hanging down by my leg, or still in the holster - especially if we're talking uniformed folk in a retention holster.

    There is room for both - and you should practice with both - lights are light red dot sights - they can and do fail. Batteries die. I carry a hand held everywhere, every day. It gets used a lot, daily even for the most mundane shit, like looking under my desk for something I dropped, or looking under a car seat. I WON'T be doing that with my WML. And if the battery in my WML dies, I can use a hand held light and still do what needs doing.
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    Axxe55

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    What thread was it this came up and @cycleguy2300 and @Sasquatch had some good points to not use the light? Oh @toddnjoyce also had good points. I don't remember the thread but the feedback was insightful.

    Inside the home though, I wouldn't worry because to be inside is, mostly, forced entry.

    Whatever thread it was it had a lot of good contact for this one. Lots of talking about weapon lights and potential intruder vs recognized intruder.
    I think I found the thread we were looking for.

     

    Sasquatch

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    Here's another take on flash light implementation - I don't know what sort of self defense instructor the author is, the bottom of the article claims he's an expert. Does not list any professional credentials beyond that.


    There's been literally hundreds of thousands of cops trained in the use of the Harries technique since it was formalized (and it was no doubt used before then, just without some dude's name attached to it - ever since battery powered flash lights came to be) - I don't think I've ever read an instance where someone shot themselves in the arm, or had major issues with it when it came to shooting stuff, that they wouldn't have otherwise had using any other one-handed shooting technique.

    The author is a proponent of a newer more fashionable technique he is calling the Graham Method - I learned that technique about 20 years ago, and never had a name associated with it. I've also seen it referred to as the Rogers Technique or the SureFire method. I don't particularly care for it, because of how it compromises the support hand. I also think that how you activate the light *may* make one more prone to sympathetic muscle reflex, and you might pop a round off when you don't intend to. I said *may* - I have not read of that happening, but I've seen plenty of other instances of sympathetic reactions causing an unintentional discharge to have reason to believe that squeezing the support hand might induce the sympathetic response from the shooting hand under stress, especially if you don't drill and drill and drill and drill the technique first in a low stress situation.

    It also requires adding shit to your light, or you run an increased risk of dropping your light, because you aren't grabbing and holding the light the way God intended the human hand to work. Just like you wouldn't pull your pud by holding your dick like a cigarette, you wouldn't hold your flashlight that way. Personally I don't want any big bulbous rings or clips on my light. They'll either get snagged on shit, they might print when I want a low visibility signature, or they will get in the way of carrying the light how I've carried it for 20+ years - that being bezel up in a belt carrier - be it on a duty belt back when I was a security monkey, or in a nylon or kydex carrier thorugh my various ventures since.

    I have tried pocket carry of flashlights numerous times since, with lights of varying size. I've lost a number of lights because of it. Same with knives. Its why I stopped buying expensive lights and knives and even multitools - I lose shit, and i lose it a lot easier if its just sitting in my pocket, or held on by a clip.

    I like just having the tube, without any unnecessary protrusions or bulges. A standard 1 inch tube body light - like the SureFire or Streamlight varieties - fits perfectly in my palm. and my fingers naturally curl around it. Nothing uncomfortable about it. It doesn't usually aggrevate the nerve damage in my hands & wrists that cause me to occasionally get the dropsies with things, especially things that aren't comfortable and ergonomic to grasp.

    The Graham Method is probably still worth learning and practicing, because it has a place. Harries is still worth learning and practicing, because it still has a place and has 50 years of effective use behind it (probably more, again, its only been a named technique for 50 years)

    I'll say a flashlight technique *I* think needs to go away, is the "FBI" technique where you hold the light way out to the side and above your head, because you know, bad guys are gonna shoot at the light so they'll miss you kind of nonsense. Unless you're blasting with a 100,000 lumen flame thrower of a light, you're probably going to be partially illuminated by back splash of light, your gun arm is going to be outstretched in front of the light, so it will be back lit, which in turn will tell bad guys where your body is, and its a weird position to be in.

    I want a technique and light that gives me quick visual target feedback, and the ability to get accurate shots on the threat if there is a threat. Using the Harries Technique or a WML, I'm not back lighting any part of myself, and minimizing any splash-back illumination of myself, and there's almost no chance of a sympathetic unintended discharge, AND I am using my appendages in an ergonomic fashion as they are intended to hold and manipulate things.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    What thread was it this came up and @cycleguy2300 and @Sasquatch had some good points to not use the light? Oh @toddnjoyce also had good points. I don't remember the thread but the feedback was insightful.

    Inside the home though, I wouldn't worry because to be inside is, mostly, forced entry.

    Whatever thread it was it had a lot of good contact for this one. Lots of talking about weapon lights and potential intruder vs recognized intruder.
    Using a weapon mounted light instead of a flashlight is bad, but if you need a light and a gun, they exist for a reason and are super handy.

    And if its dark or dim and you get a eye full of a weapon mounted surefire or streamlight etc, you won't be seeing if its on a gun or not...

    In short a weapon mounted light isn't a replacement for a flashlight and a flashlight is a handicap in combat vs a weapon mounted light. You need both and you need to know when it is time to use each.

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    cycleguy2300

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    I'll differ with Mas assumptions here.

    1.) If I'm on my property, the likelihood I get charged with a felony for aiming a firearm at an intruder is next to nil. The likelihood I'd even get more than a mild suggestion not to is nil, because I don't like in a commie shithole state. If its dark, and you're trespassing, especially out here in the country - just getting a gun pointed in your general direction should be the least of your worries.

    2.) I said it before, but I'll say it again for the slow kids or those who didn't see it before - you *do*not*have*to*point*the*gun*at*something*to*illuminate*it - especially indoors. You can bounce the light off the floor, off the wall, or off the ceiling and illuminate things, without pointing your gun at it. Mas talks about this - then says "but your instinct is to point the gun at a person if you see it" - no shit - If I'm searching a building as just me, myself and I - I'm searching MY property. I know who is and is not allowed to be there. I can ID them in a fraction of a second. That means I know who is *not* supposed to be there in that same time - if you're in my place or on my property when its dark enough I need the light - you're damn skippy right I'm going to point my gun at you and we're going to have a serious chat, at the very least. Not going to jail for it either.

    If I'm LE or security - I've been called to investigate an intruder - I have reason to believe that anyone lurking about in the dark does NOT have a right to be there, and thus I can reasonably articulate WHY I pointed a gun at them - I have reason to believe that they are committing a felony IE burglary. If they can prove they have a right to be there, ok, no harm no foul. No one's going to jail unless someone gets shot that doesn't need shooting. Someone *may* need to change their pants, but lessons will be learned.

    3.) Nothing precludes you from utilizing BOTH a weapon mounted light, and a hand held light. You can do both. I've done it. You can actually brighten things up by activating both lights, if you need more punch than one light alone gives you. Kind of like turning the high beams on on your car. You can always drop the hand held light if you need to.

    4.) The benefits of a weapon mounted light are numerous. I can use one hand to both control the pistol AND activate the light if I need it, while keeping my other hand free for other tasks - such as grasping the arm of my child, opening a door, carrying someone / something, dialing 9-1-1 on my cell phone, etc. Then there is another little, slight benefit, few people talk about. Lights = muzzle weights. Your gun isn't going to be as snappy recoiling, and will return to rest easier, because you've got 2-4 ounces on the nose of the gun helping keep the muzzle down.

    5.) IF I am in a professional situation that requires me to search a building - IE law enforcement or private security - I damn sure will be using my weapon mounted light and not a hand held light because I can have TWO hands on my gun to shoot, unless I have to manipulate something with my off hand, which, aw geez, I covered above. I still don't have to point the gun at something to light it up, but I damn sure can if it looks like a threat. I'm probably only going to jail at that point if I wind up shooting someone that didn't need shooting. Once again - if I'm supposed to be there, and they aren't - getting a gun pointed at them with a flashlight attached is low on the list of bad things that can happen to them. Show me the police officer clearing a building without their gun in their hand, I'll show you a person who should be selling shoes at Al's Discount Boot Bin instead of wearing a badge. His / her / its survival chances are a lot higher schlepping shoes to fat chicks, than wandering around dark buildings looking for badguys without their gun out and ready.

    6.) God forbid you have to shoot someone - your going to be more accurate with a solid two hand grip on the gun, than with one hand on a flashlight, and one on the pistol. Even using the Harries technique with hands back to back to brace the gun - your recoil control isn't going to be as good, so your follow up shots won't be as quick or likely as accurate as if you have a firm two handed grip on your gun. Even under the best circumstances, the hit rate in the average police or citizen defender shooting isn't great - why handicap yourself unnecessarily because of the slight chance someone will get their feels hurt because you pointed a scary gun at them, while they were trespassing / burglarizing your place, etc?

    7.) If I'm using a long gun to search shit at night, I am using a weapon mounted light, period. I guess you could bastardize the already retarded Center Axis Relock bullshit, and use the crook of your support arm to try supporting the muzzle end of your long gun, while you have your trusty 6P in hand - you're still aiming a gun at something at that point, and you're just being retarded about it. If you are NOT using a white light (or IR + night vision, if you're a rich bitch night ninja) and searching in the dark with a long gun, you're doing it wrong and probably going to shoot someone or something that doesn't need shot by being startled, more than the person using a white light properly. And again - even with a long gun - you don't have to point the gun at what you're looking at to illuminate them - use splash illumination off the floor / wall / ceiling, etc.

    Mas has a lot of good information, but he's not infallable, and I think he's flat wrong on the notion of weapon lights. He wants to bring *hunting* with a scoped rifle in as a corrolarry on the use of lights. That's a big jump. If I'm clearing a dark building, I don't need magnification, but I need *light* to ID someone. A telescopic sight isn't going to ID someone if it's pointed at their feet but a white light will give me enough info to let me know if its something I probably SHOULD be pointing a gun at. Am I going to bumble around with my gun pointed at *my* feet, with my hand held light and wind up behind the curve if a burglar - who could well be armed themselves - has their gun already in hand and pointed at me? Nope - I can get a shot off from low ready or high ready a lot faster than if its hanging down by my leg, or still in the holster - especially if we're talking uniformed folk in a retention holster.

    There is room for both - and you should practice with both - lights are light red dot sights - they can and do fail. Batteries die. I carry a hand held everywhere, every day. It gets used a lot, daily even for the most mundane shit, like looking under my desk for something I dropped, or looking under a car seat. I WON'T be doing that with my WML. And if the battery in my WML dies, I can use a hand held light and still do what needs doing.
    Re: #2

    If searching correctly with a weapon mounted light, you SHOULD be pointing the gun and the light at things and people as you ID them. As you pie a corner or door the first thing you want someone to see is your light/muzzle, not your elbow, shoulder or face...

    Now for a bump-in-the-night to get there would take some doing, because building search/clearing with 1 person vs unknown isn't putting the odds in your favor, but to point a gun at someone (threaten deadly force) you simply need to be able to articulate that the use of force would have been justified. Its a pretty low standard and at night, in your home, you shouldn't have much trouble making your case.

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    jrbfishn

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    He has likely seen this in a trail case. He has more experience than this whole form, but...In real life when you drop the flashlight and get the gun the bad guy has already fired off three rounds.
    I have a light so I know what I am shooting at and not just a family member's shadow in the dark.
    Judged by 12 or carried by six comes to mind
    My light is in my off hand. Gun in my right. If you have to put your light down to pick up a gun, you are doing wrong.

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    Axxe55

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    Re: #2

    If searching correctly with a weapon mounted light, you SHOULD be pointing the gun and the light at things and people as you ID them. As you pie a corner or door the first thing you want someone to see is your light/muzzle, not your elbow, shoulder or face...

    Now for a bump-in-the-night to get there would take some doing, because building search/clearing with 1 person vs unknown isn't putting the odds in your favor, but to point a gun at someone (threaten deadly force) you simply need to be able to articulate that the use of force would have been justified. Its a pretty low standard and at night, in your home, you shouldn't have much trouble making your case.

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    ^^^^I like this!^^^^

    Any intruder in your home uninvited is or should be considered a threat.
     

    candcallen

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    There are so many variables in clearing a dark house. One should practice innthe daylight and dark in their own home. They also need to decide weather they meet a threat/intruder or wait for it to come to them and that depends greatly on weather there is other family home and the exact details of the incident. The greatest immediate need versus the greatest tactical position.

    Weapon mounted lights require much more training as you are pointing that gun where the light shines. You forget there is a gun attached to the light and begin acting like it's just a flash light. Even well trained law enforcement who routinely clear buildings at night and train with that technique do that at times.

    I don't use weapon mounted lights for that reason and because I know the training required to add one versus what I've always done.

    In your home lighting up a threat no problem. Outside your home you may inadvertently point your weapon some place you shouldn't. You will eventually forget there is a gun attached to your light if not extreme in your discipline and training.
     

    Axxe55

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    This is one of those no one size fits all. Way too many variables to Ayoob's aadvice might or might not fit your specific needs, as well as any other advice or suggested posted here. Each person needs to evaluate their needs, and unique circumstances to see what is best suited to their own needs.
     

    Axxe55

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    I mean, technically he's right on some points, but if I'm woken up at night by a bump in the night, I'm going to assume any person making the bump noises is not supposed to be there and I'm going to identify who it is before the bullets start flying. A light is very important for that.

    Any DA that would bring a case against a law abiding citizen for using a gun light to identify a potential intruder before letting the bullets fly should be voted out for being a ****.
    Should be and what will be are two very different things. And you live in a very liberal part of Texas that very thing could happen.

    Liberal politicians thrive in liberal counties because of white influential voters keep them there.
     

    Axxe55

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    Has there ever been someone charged for pointed a weapon mount light someone before?
    I put this in the same category as the crap he pushed years ago about using your own reloads in self defense. I am not a fan of Mr Massad Ayoob I think he's full crap.
    It's not the light, but the weapon attached to the light Ayoob is referring to being his issue.

    I take what he says with a grain of salt. He looks at a lot of "what-ifs" IMO.
     

    Texan79423

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    It once was in some courts that if you carry hollow points, you are intent on killing. Fact is you can be 100% with n your rights and be proven guilty. Look how hard they went after Riddenberry both in the media and courtroom.
     

    Sasquatch

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    It once was in some courts that if you carry hollow points, you are intent on killing. Fact is you can be 100% with n your rights and be proven guilty. Look how hard they went after Riddenberry both in the media and courtroom.

    In libby shithole places like New Jersey (which, I think still has a ban on the civilian carry of hollowpoints - that's why Federal created "expanding FMJ" rounds) - are you saying Texas viewed it similarly? Must've been during the democrat ruling years.
     

    Axxe55

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    It once was in some courts that if you carry hollow points, you are intent on killing. Fact is you can be 100% with n your rights and be proven guilty. Look how hard they went after Riddenberry both in the media and courtroom.
    I have to disagree. Intent has to be proven. And if I'm not mistaken the vast majority of LE officers carry hollow-point ammo as their duty ammo.

    The argument could be made that ANYONE that carries a gun, has intent on killing. I think we are all smart enough to know that ain't true.
     

    Sam7sf

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    Has there ever been someone charged for pointed a weapon mount light someone before?
    I put this in the same category as the crap he pushed years ago about using your own reloads in self defense. I am not a fan of Mr Massad Ayoob I think he's full crap.
    I wanted to ask this. Good question. I mean...anything is possible.
     

    Sam7sf

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    Using a weapon mounted light instead of a flashlight is bad, but if you need a light and a gun, they exist for a reason and are super handy.

    And if its dark or dim and you get a eye full of a weapon mounted surefire or streamlight etc, you won't be seeing if its on a gun or not...

    In short a weapon mounted light isn't a replacement for a flashlight and a flashlight is a handicap in combat vs a weapon mounted light. You need both and you need to know when it is time to use each.

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    Re: #2

    If searching correctly with a weapon mounted light, you SHOULD be pointing the gun and the light at things and people as you ID them. As you pie a corner or door the first thing you want someone to see is your light/muzzle, not your elbow, shoulder or face...

    Now for a bump-in-the-night to get there would take some doing, because building search/clearing with 1 person vs unknown isn't putting the odds in your favor, but to point a gun at someone (threaten deadly force) you simply need to be able to articulate that the use of force would have been justified. Its a pretty low standard and at night, in your home, you shouldn't have much trouble making your case.

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    There it is. This thread needed that. It had been so long I couldn't remember our conversation in the old thread.
     
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