Is the problem with the US, too much democracy?

[winchster]

We have done it before.

What you are talking about is just another form of oppression, but you are ok with it because you think you will benefit from it.

So what happens when the government becomes wary of the ultra conservatives, the gun owners, vets (probably have PTSD ya know). And damn, some of them vets are probably getting disability for injuries. Small change can remove their voice.

Then there is the REAL fracture that would form. It would push this country closer to another civil war than anything we have seen or thought of. And those who have the backbone to stand by their principles would not be at your side.

If I ever enter another war it will be to protect freedom, not take it away. Saying "nobody has a better plan" does not make a shitty idea a good one.

Besides, at the first hint of such a ridiculous idea gaining traction the libs/dems would have a lock on the elections for decades to come.

I would not vote for anyone who showed even the slightest hint of such an unamerican ideology. Almost makes Obama look sane. We are furious that the dems want to violate our rights, yet some of y'all have the audacity to suggest such a gross violation of the rights of others.

It is wrong. That is all I need to know to make up my mind. It is wrong and goes against everything I stand for and everything I swore to protect.

I second all of this.

 

[benenglish]

...some of y'all have the audacity to suggest such a gross violation of the rights of others. ...

I'm not sure which gross violation you're referencing. I see things in this thread I would not support, too.

However, I feel that the 17th Amendment was right for the time it was passed but that we'd be better off without it today. By turning the election of Senators into a more-local issue, voters might have more influence on who gets the job rather than the answer nearly always being "the incumbent." If the incumbent is someone you want to remove, you need only concentrate your campaign efforts on in-state swing districts. That's easier to do than convincing a state-wide electorate who mostly vote on name recognition, anyway.

Bottom line, dumping the 17th would lessen the job security of Senators. I think that would be a good thing.

It's also insulating the voters from their candidate and, thus, a fundamentally "less freedom" approach to filling Senate seats. Still, it's a tweak I could endorse.

 

[Younggun]

I'm not sure which gross violation you're referencing. I see things in this thread I would not support, too.

However, I feel that the 17th Amendment was right for the time it was passed but that we'd be better off without it today. By turning the election of Senators into a more-local issue, voters might have more influence on who gets the job rather than the answer nearly always being "the incumbent." If the incumbent is someone you want to remove, you need only concentrate your campaign efforts on in-state swing districts. That's easier to do than convincing a state-wide electorate who mostly vote on name recognition, anyway.

Bottom line, dumping the 17th would lessen the job security of Senators. I think that would be a good thing.

It's also insulating the voters from their candidate and, thus, a fundamentally "less freedom" approach to filling Senate seats. Still, it's a tweak I could endorse.

What you describe is different than removing a persons right to vote, which is what others are suggesting.

 

[breakingcontact]

Historically immigrants were Americanized. German Americans who were immigrants or children of immigrants went and jacked up Germany in the 40s!

Immigrants are no longer Americanized unless they choose to be. The left says if you are against immigration you are xenophobic. Not at all. Lets have immigration, thats awesome. Lets also have integration instead of a bunch of nations within a country.

The GOP is currently schizophrenic. We need a clear way forward. A way to combat this and not just try to minimize the damage. Im proposing my suggestion(s), what are yours?

GOP BC plan:

-Defund the government, shut it down except the vital Constitutional parts.
-Impeach and remove both the President and Vice President (Biden would do something unconstitutional immediately if he hasn't already)
-Greatly increase voting requirements (I dont want it to be easy).
-Reduce the number of people eligible to vote.
-Address the national debt and adjust long term spending to be closer to a balanced budget (historically we havent always had a balanced budget)
-Go through all previous gov spending and determine what is Constitutional and what isnt (after getting some decent SCOTUS members) and rebuild from there.

If you consider that a pipe dream, OK, what's your plan?

What can we do instead of complaining about RINOS?

-Vote
-Contribute money
-Campaign

The important races arent in Texas but there are a lot of ways we can support good candidates in their races.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I don't advocate removing anyone's voting rights.

I do advocate reverting back to the original way we selected senators to represent our states.

 

[Vaquero]

What's wrong with USA?
Too many people who no longer have pride in their country or themselves.

They cherish electronic gadgets, fancy cars, nice homes, ............
no matter who paid for it with sweat and tears.

Status! Gotta have status.

Obama strengthened sanctions on Russia today. Who really suffers?
No wonder the planet hates us.
We don't want the gov in our business, neither does 3/4 of the global population.
Too big. Just too fukin big.

 

[navyguy]

I don't advocate removing anyone's voting rights.

I do advocate reverting back to the original way we selected senators to represent our states.

I don't know how much the selection process for senators would change much since within states it pretty much goes along party lines. Maybe in some states and isolated instances. I'd have to study that a bit. As to the privilege to vote; our laws are perfect. They just need to be enforced. Which means voters need to prove some eligibility post vote. Be it pre-registered with a voters card and picture ID, or some sort of proof that they live in the district and also provide a picture ID to prove they are who they say they are. What's so hard about that?

 

[breakingcontact]

Do we have a democracy or a constitutional republic?

My proposal is shocking to some of you apparently but its not radical at all.

In a democracy the power is in the will of the people and everyone gets to vote.

In a constitutional republic the power of the people is limited and not everyone gets to vote.

What type of government do we have? What type of government do you want?

The only encouraging things I can find in these troubling times are that people are going to have to: figure out what they truly believe and build community with the like minded.

 

[Younggun]

There is nothing about a constitutional republic that says "not everyone gets to vote", unless you are referring to the fact that we have a representative government, but that's a different level of voting which is what separates us from a true democracy.

You might want to google "constitutional republic".

And it's not radical, in fact it's been done before and eventually we finally agreed that we shouldn't base the right to vote on stupid things like race, sex, land ownership, or economic class.

It's still wrong to violate a persons right and take away their voice in government.

 

[96fordsix]

All this, yet no one has talked about voter apathy. Till we combat this, the rest is null.

 

[jrbfishn]

Historically immigrants were Americanized. German Americans who were immigrants or children of immigrants went and jacked up Germany in the 40s!

Immigrants are no longer Americanized unless they choose to be. The left says if you are against immigration you are xenophobic. Not at all. Lets have immigration, thats awesome. Lets also have integration instead of a bunch of nations within a country.

The GOP is currently schizophrenic. We need a clear way forward. A way to combat this and not just try to minimize the damage. Im proposing my suggestion(s), what are yours?

GOP BC plan:

-Defund the government, shut it down except the vital Constitutional parts.
-Impeach and remove both the President and Vice President (Biden would do something unconstitutional immediately if he hasn't already)
-Greatly increase voting requirements (I dont want it to be easy).
-Reduce the number of people eligible to vote.
-Address the national debt and adjust long term spending to be closer to a balanced budget (historically we havent always had a balanced budget)
-Go through all previous gov spending and determine what is Constitutional and what isnt (after getting some decent SCOTUS members) and rebuild from there.

If you consider that a pipe dream, OK, what's your plan?

What can we do instead of complaining about RINOS?

-Vote
-Contribute money
-Campaign

The important races arent in Texas but there are a lot of ways we can support good candidates in their races.

Only two ways you would get this. One will take a long time and a lot of work.
The other is unacceptable and nobody will like it. Or what they wind up with. It won't be what they think.
Limiting who gets to vote and have a say, ain't that what the Dems are trying to do now? No, but I do think an ID system is needed. Desperatly.

from an idgit coffeeholic

 

[Saltyag2010]

All this, yet no one has talked about voter apathy. Till we combat this, the rest is null.

I'm happy to throw most of my votes away to the libertarian candidate. Hell if a Green Party guy is conservative ill vote for them. Can't vote establishment bullshit moderate-but-social conservative republican.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

I'm happy to throw most of my votes away to the libertarian candidate. Hell if a Green Party guy is conservative ill vote for them. Can't vote establishment bullshit moderate-but-social conservative republican.

I'm with you if the establishment and necons screw over the tea party/libertarian republicans in 2016. The only way they will get the message is if they a start losing elections because of third party conservatives and libertarians.

 

[Sapper740]

Well, it's obvious no one likes my idea even though it guarantees every one gets a vote. Without giving some sort of advantage to the Makers how do we stop the Takers from destroying our country? Obama's Surge will virtually guarantee democrats the White House and Congress for generations to come unless we immediately put measures in place to counter it. I've suggested to my Congressman that part of any deal struck with the Democrats over illegal immigration include this:

We give all the illegals two paths to choose from, the first gives them a route to citizenship if they return to their homeland and submit themselves to the background checks, medical check-up, and fees that the rest of us immigrants had to submit ourselves to. They would have to pay a fine and agree to not being eligible for any hand-outs for two years. They would then be given priority handling of their case at the U.S. Consulate in their country.

The second path: Any illegal currently in the country can choose to remain in the U.S. but will only ever be able to have a Green card. They and their spawn will forever be denied citizenship.

My plan will separate those who come to America to join with us as Citizens and those who solely see America as a cow to be milked. Part of the agreement with the Democrats is, of course, not one more penny for anything other than critical spending until a wall is built and manned from the Gulf to the Pacific.

 

[Younggun]

^i like it.

 

[jrbfishn]

Now that i could go along with


Sent by a idjit coffeeholic

 

[breakingcontact]

Well, it's obvious no one likes my idea even though it guarantees every one gets a vote. Without giving some sort of advantage to the Makers how do we stop the Takers from destroying our country? Obama's Surge will virtually guarantee democrats the White House and Congress for generations to come unless we immediately put measures in place to counter it. I've suggested to my Congressman that part of any deal struck with the Democrats over illegal immigration include this:

We give all the illegals two paths to choose from, the first gives them a route to citizenship if they return to their homeland and submit themselves to the background checks, medical check-up, and fees that the rest of us immigrants had to submit ourselves to. They would have to pay a fine and agree to not being eligible for any hand-outs for two years. They would then be given priority handling of their case at the U.S. Consulate in their country.

The second path: Any illegal currently in the country can choose to remain in the U.S. but will only ever be able to have a Green card. They and their spawn will forever be denied citizenship.

My plan will separate those who come to America to join with us as Citizens and those who solely see America as a cow to be milked. Part of the agreement with the Democrats is, of course, not one more penny for anything other than critical spending until a wall is built and manned from the Gulf to the Pacific.

What you are describing is how republics operated throughout history.

 

[breakingcontact]

All this, yet no one has talked about voter apathy. Till we combat this, the rest is null.

100% agree with this. People are way too apathetic and jaded. What it really comes down to though is being both idealistic and lazy.

 

[96fordsix]

+1

 

[Booyah]

As some have mentioned, the root problem is not with the "system" or the political mechanics of the U.S. Any system, or change to the system, that anyone suggests can be gamed by immoral/amoral/apathetic people, voters and politicians. Therefore the solution is not to be found in changes to the system but to changes is us.