Campus carry syllabus post-SB-11

[TexasProf]

No, I've never owned or fired a gun (beyond a nail driver). I'm not against it, just not that interested. My students have often said they'll take me shooting, but they never follow through. Most recently it was a group of female grad students who were going to take me to the gun range. Someday, most likely. In the meantime I have to get this right.

Maybe one of you guys will.

Ignoring the problem is not an option. There have to be clear rules consistent with the law.

 

[Younggun]

So you want to call attention to something in order to insure it's not distracting?


There are already clear rules. They are in the penal code. Anything else will by campus policy which I'm sure the campus will make very clear.

What you are wanting to do is really unnecessary and given your lack of knowledge in this area, could be very detrimental.

Also, you needn't think of it as a "problem", there really isn't one to solve as it relates to your classroom.


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[Countryfried Frank]

I think I have a bit of an idea where you are coming from. I moved here from Minnesota last year and college campuses are not treated differently like they are here. Additionally, Minnesota has allowed open carry since 2003. In my experience, it is about the biggest non-event imaginable. I never saw someone carrying in campus. The most significant event I am aware of was one of my classmates not having time to drop off his pistol before class and securing it in his vehicle. He was worried that his empty holster would print. I agree with previous posters, this is no bigger an event than what you make of it. If I were to recommend phrasing for you syllabus it would be, "At *institution x* we are aware that SB-11 provides for concealed carry of handguns by licensees and we wish to respect the rights and privileges of those who have earned them. We also expect licensees to respect the concerns of their classmates and diligently keep their handgun both secure and concealed while on *institution x* campus and off campus property."

I can't stress enough, coming from an OC state, this is no more than what you make of it.

 

[TexasProf]

> Those with a CHL will know much more than you with regard to legalities, simply as a prerequisite for holding the license.

I don't get the idea that 4 hours of training a few years ago makes anybody an expert on anything. I'm an expert on where volcanoes come from, but it took me 20 years of continuous intense study to get there, and dozens of original research articles that I wrote and published on the topic. And still there are plenty of things I don't know.

I know how to research a topic, think things through for myself and get advice from people who know more, but in the end I have to make up my own mind about these things.

So somebody show me where OC on campus after Jan 1st is banned by anything but University rules? After August 1, CC will be allowed on campus, while OC remains a rules infraction, not a crime.

 

[jrbfishn]

When I took a class in Law Enforecement; handgun use and proficiency in 1977, we all brought our guns to class. It was a non issue. No one wanted to shoot except on the range.
A large number of CHL holders do know the law on carrying very well. Because we live it every day and are well aware of the fact that making a mistake, nomatter how minor, could cost us our license or jail or both.
As far as others backing out on taking you to the range, here's a deal. If you really do want to learn, I'll take you on any tuesday or wednesday. Those are my days off. If you can get to Salado on a saturday or sunday morning I'll get up early and meet you at the range at 9am. I have pistols and rifles. Ammo is on me. Range fee would be $100 as my guest.

Once campus concealed carry is legal, open carry will not be legal per either law, all concealed laws will still apply. All your syllabus needs to say is one very simple thing.
Concealed means concealed, please make every effort to insure it remains concealed. Infractions will be reported per campus policy and State law as applicable. Thank you for your understanding.
Real simple, non threatening and just reinforces what WE already know. Even if you do not.
As far as us not knowing as much in four hours as you have learned in 20 years, not trying to be a smartass, volcanos are considerably more complicated than concealed carry laws. And just because you don't know them, doesn't mean your students don't.
My offer is on the table. It's entirely up to you. If you really want to learn, here is your chance. I will even do my best to get printed copies of both laws and I am more than happy to discuss them with you. I don't have a printer.
Just post on here and I will get you my phone number. I am in Killeen by the way. Austin ranges are hard for me to get to except on tues. or wed. evening. But I could do that too if you want.

sent from an idgit coffeeholic

 

[Glockster69]

Don't you mean a $10 range fee fishn?

I'll match his offer within say an 80 mile radius of Huntsville (don't want to drive into Houston) at any agreeable range. I go to a gun club in Madisonville, no range fee or time limit and usually not crowded. Your call Prof ...

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

So somebody show me where OC on campus after Jan 1st is banned by anything but University rules? After August 1, CC will be allowed on campus, while OC remains a rules infraction, not a crime. [/COLOR]

Good explanation here: http://www.armedcampuses.org/texas/

Link to the law to take effect: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/84R/billtext/pdf/SB00011F.pdf#navpanes=0


FYI University rules wouldn't trump the law in any case.

 

[cbigclarke]

No matter what is said, you are hell bent on ignoring, and doing what you want. Why bother even asking the questions then?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Clif notes:
1) Right now concealed carry is illegal inside campus buildings.
2) Jan 1 2016 it will only be legal to OC where its legal to CC. So it will still be illegal to OC and CC inside campus buildings.
3) The law enacted then extends CC only to the campus in August 2016 for 4yr institutions and August 2017 for JuCos and 2yr institutions.

ETA: You may also want to look at the definitions of premises in penal code 46.035. It's already legal to CC on campus grounds just not inside the buildings. It's also already legal to leave your CC handgun inside your locked vehicle in the parking lot.

 

[TexasProf]

I've got no time right now to go shooting, this is the busiest part of the year. But eventually I will, thanks for the offer guys -- better than my students managed. My associate Provost has also offered, and he lives much closer. He is very much an enthusiast, though not CHL as far as I know.

My questions here are not about me. It's about what I will tell my class and put in the syllabus. I'm trying to get to language that is legal.

My legal counsel and Police Chief are nice people and very smart in their way but they think only inside the box to the point that they're not aware that the box has an outside.

I'm not always perfectly informed, but I very often think of things other people hadn't considered, that's why I'm going through this exercise.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

They still can't OC or CC inside a building on Jan1. They can only CC inside a building starting in August 2016.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

To steal from CFF's post above, and if you really want to include something in the syllabus I'd roll this way:

"At *institution x* we are aware that SB-11 amends Texas Penal Code to provide for concealed carry of handguns by licensees and we wish to respect the rights and privileges of those who have earned them. We also expect licensees to respect the concerns of their classmates and diligently keep their handgun both secure and concealed while on *institution x* campus and off campus property.

Please note: This law does not take effect until August 1, 2016."

 

[Countryfried Frank]

Good edit. Thanks Hippie.

 

[TexasProf]

Next question:

What are valid criteria by which proposed gun exclusion zones on campus can be evaluated? We can't just say "no guns in my office" or "no guns in classrooms", the law clearly doesn't allow this.

We would rank these and score them to produce a prioritized list of proposed exclusion zones. They will have to be permanent and well-marked, so we can't just say "not at pep rallies".

Easy ones to consider:

- Places where alcoholic beverages may be consumed.

- Places where young children are present.

- Places where due to the presence of hazardous chemicals, high voltages, compressed gases, high vacuum equipment, explosives of any kind pose a heightened safety risk.

- Places that are already considered security areas.

- Places where the potential for interpersonal conflict are high.

- Motor vehicles transporting students to university events.

I guess most of you would say that there should be no exclusion zones. But come on now, the law provides for them, what would be the most reasonable criteria for them to be evaluated? Are there more than I have listed? I'm talking about criteria, not places. The places we have to evaluate based on the criteria.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

There are already laws that deal with carry and alcohol. So posting a bar would be redundant if its already marked 51% by TABC. It's also illegal to be drunk and carry. Posting doesn't add anything there.

Children? I don't see why this would be considered. It's illegal to leave an unsecured weapon out where a kid can get to it. Frankly I feel more comfortable knowing a CHL holder may be around if some lunatic goes off around my kids. A large reason I carry is because I want to protect my kids. I really think disallowing that is way out of line and inappropriate.

Sporting events are already off limits for carry.

The main one I'd think of are labs or places around flammable chemicals.

 

[dalto]

I don't get the idea that 4 hours of training a few years ago makes anybody an expert on anything. I'm an expert on where volcanoes come from, but it took me 20 years of continuous intense study to get there, and dozens of original research articles that I wrote and published on the topic. And still there are plenty of things I don't know.

I will be honest and say I know nothing about formation of Volcanoes. That being said, I am fairly confident that the topic is far more complicated than the concealed carry laws in Texas. Frankly, it takes quite a bit less than 4 hours to go over all the rules about where and how you can carry. As CHL holders we have to use this knowledge every day to know where we can and can't go.

I will be honest, I don't fully understand why you or the school you are at want to make this a front and center issue. To be a CHL holder you need to be at least 21. That will eliminate some of your student body. After that, only a small portion of the overall population is a CHL holder anyway. Beyond that, CHL holders are trained to look for signs that tell them where they can and cannot carry.

When you go to the grocery store there are likely people around you concealing handguns. If the store put up disclaimers are the front door that described a set of rules for CHL holders that was consistent with the law would that help the non-CHL shoppers? I personally don't think it would.

 

[straightwall]

Those with a CHL will know much more...

want to be knowledgable on the subject, and make a difference for your students? Seriously consider taking the CHL course yourself.

Yes, you don't have to pay the state for the license if you don't want to. You can take the course as a stand-alone training as a way to further research this subject. Cost is $70- $120 in the Houston area. Lots of good info and you can put a few shots down range to see what that is like.

 

[karlac]

My questions here are not about me. It's about what I will tell my class and put in the syllabus. I'm trying to get to language that is legal.

My legal counsel and Police Chief are nice people and very smart in their way but they think only inside the box to the point that they're not aware that the box has an outside.

I'm not always perfectly informed, but I very often think of things other people hadn't considered, that's why I'm going through this exercise.

Ignoring the problem is not an option. There have to be clear rules consistent with the law.

Again, there is not a more thorough way to provide the understanding to get it right: Bite the bullet, make the time, take the class.

As an academic apparently tasked with researching the subject, you should understand that you have a clear, scientific justification -almost a duty- for doing so.

Get with it, Bubba ...

 

[zincwarrior]

I'm a professor considering syllabus language regarding firearms in my classroom following SB 11.
My draft syllabus language (starting Aug 1, 2016) is intended to be simple and clear:

"Firearms policy: In my classroom, the rule is "Don't ask, don't tell, don't show". That is, I won't ask you about your chl status or whether you are carrying, you won't tell me either, and you won't show your weapon. We will pretend as if there are no firearms in this classroom ever, and we'll all get along just fine. Anything else is a situation."

Does this forum consider wording like this acceptable, or at least consistent with the current law?

What happens if a student breaks it? I mean for example by revealing, negligently or intentionally.

I'm not trolling, I really want to know. I've thought long and hard before posting here and I'm not looking for a flame war.

I think you would be smarter to leave the topic alone. The school sets policy and anything you do will tick off a portion of your colleagues for no benefit I can see.

 

[zincwarrior]

I feel "post nothing" is the better solution, but I hope the OP will get something from this thread to help him/her through this change to make the transition as smooth as possible for both him/her and the students.




Sent from my HAL 9000

indeed. Anything else is just a trigger warning about...triggers.