Active Shooter at Robb Elementary in Uvalde

[popper]

halligan tool or fire axe from FD! Even a decent crow bar. If a 223 goes through the door so will an axe. Most don't stand in FRONT of a door to breach it, except on TV.
Janitor should be the one with all the keys and should have been available from the start.
Duncanville episode today was same simpleton thinking, although it seems from reports that the workers did/knew what to do, no armed persons on-site. 2 min for LE to respond could have been bad.
Dallas ambush was stupid as chief stated no riot gear to be used at the demonstration.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Most don't stand in FRONT of a door to breach it, except on TV.

Tool dependent.


ETA: there’s a reason the entry guy/team is not usually counted as assaulters. There’s also a reason why the first guy through the door is the first guy. Takes a special breed.

 

[popsgarland]

Keep in mind that a metal door is not solid. It is two thin pieces of metal with, most of the time, Styrofoam in between them.

 

[Colonel]

If you can’t get through the door, grab a sledgehammer and take down the wall. Jackhammer would work too.

 

[Axxe55]

Why expend all that time and energy and making a lot of needless noise when there were exterior windows that could have been used instead?

They were using them in other classrooms to evacuate the children.

 

[Colonel]

I’ll bet if just one of them had a brain they could have gotten in there

 

[toddnjoyce]

Why expend all that time and energy and making a lot of needless noise when there were exterior windows that could have been used instead?

They were using them in other classrooms to evacuate the children.

You know about what happens when you assume something.

I said this way earlier in the thread, but there’s lots of details we don’t know. I also know people fail when they start getting shot at. It sucks, but it’s the truth. This pollyana the cops are here to save to day horseshit is exactly that, pollyana horseshit.

 

[Axxe55]

You know about what happens when you assume something.

I said this way earlier in the thread, but there’s lots of details we don’t know. I also know people fail when they start getting shot at. It sucks, but it’s the truth. This pollyana the cops are here to save to day horseshit is exactly that, pollyana horseshit.

Having never been in LE or the military, I know I lack the tactical training that they were suppose to have, or should have had, but I made a living out of solving problems. There are always solutions to a problem. Some are just better than others. The biggest failure I see was the lack of trying something, hell, anything.

 

[toddnjoyce]

… the tactical training that they were suppose to have, or should have had...

Again, Texas requires your barber to spend more time training for their license than police do for theirs.

Once a threat is barricaded, your average cop is in a tactical stalemate or defeated. How hard is that to accept?

 

[Axxe55]

Again, Texas requires your barber to spend more time training for their license than police do for theirs.

Once a threat is barricaded, your average cop is in a tactical stalemate or defeated. How hard is that to accept?

Maybe that's why so many died that day. They accepted that as fact and were defeated, rather than looking at other options.

Just never been my nature to so easily accept defeat and give up.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Maybe that's why so many died that day..

Or most were dead (or well on their way) before the first cop arrived on scene, several minutes after the shooter was there.

I have a real hard time accepting that for over an hour, random executions were taking place and nobody was doing anything. That would indicate active shooter still and not barricaded threat.

My guess is once the threat settled into the classroom and the cops tried the first breach, most of the killing was done.

I could be wrong.

 

[oldag]

Or most were dead (or well on their way) before the first cop arrived on scene, several minutes after the shooter was there.

I have a real hard time accepting that for over an hour, random executions were taking place and nobody was doing anything. That would indicate active shooter still and not barricaded threat.

My guess is once the threat settled into the classroom and the cops tried the first breach, most of the killing was done.

I could be wrong.

Very probably true.

But did the responders know that for certain? Probably not, almost certainly not.

Tough call. Tough situation. But there have been other people in this world who made the sacrifice in attempts to save others.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Very probably true.

But did the responders know that for certain? Probably not, almost certainly not.

Tough call. Tough situation. But there have been other people in this world who made the sacrifice in attempts to save others.

And that’s the dilemma. You don’t know what you don’t know, but if the assumption is an armed, barricaded threat with live hostages, then err to hostage safety unless there’s reason not to.

 

[General Zod]

Why expend all that time and energy and making a lot of needless noise when there were exterior windows that could have been used instead?

They were using them in other classrooms to evacuate the children.

There's also the fact that a drop ceiling tends to have walls that end 2-3 feet above the ceiling tiles, with nothing but empty space between them and the roof. And I've never been in a modern school that didn't have acoustic tile drop ceilings. A ladder or even a couple of guys giving a buddy a boost would have given them an avenue of attack.

 

[Renegade]

Or most were dead (or well on their way) before the first cop arrived on scene, several minutes after the shooter was there.

I have a real hard time accepting that for over an hour, random executions were taking place and nobody was doing anything. That would indicate active shooter still and not barricaded threat.

My guess is once the threat settled into the classroom and the cops tried the first breach, most of the killing was done.

I could be wrong.

The teacher who lived said he came in door (unlocked) and started shooting everyone in 111. It appears he engaged cops and locked himself in and then started shooting everyone in 112

 

[Renegade]

Very probably true.

But did the responders know that for certain? Probably not, almost certainly not.

Tough call. Tough situation. But there have been other people in this world who made the sacrifice in attempts to save others.

They certainly knew he had shot people and they needed medical care. At least one teacher and one student died enroute to hospital

 

[toddnjoyce]

The teacher who lived said he came in door (unlocked) and started shooting everyone in 111. It appears he engaged cops and locked himself in and then started shooting everyone in 112

If that’s the case then it was a done deal pretty early on and the rest is a blame game, which is unfortunate because it draws attention from the fûcked up asshöle.

It also make Arredondo an even bigger piece of shit in my book. Abbot’s grandstanding on day 1 looks worse and worse in hindsight, and DPS bowing out of routine updates despite being the lead investigative agency is embarrassing and DOJ has already announced the CIRG look at the incident is an after action review not subject to prosecution.

That’s more disgusting to me than a penny ante PD not knowing what to do in a shootout.

ETA: I can’t think of a better way to degrade the public’s confidence in .gov.

 

[Renegade]

The inability to get in the room cost lives. We will never know how many were alive and could have been saved if they had a key immediately

 

[toddnjoyce]

The inability to get in the room cost lives. We will never know how many were alive and could have been saved if they had a key immediately

For want of a nail and all that. Next problem would have been triage and transport for those still in the golden hour. And Lord knows every cop carries an IFAK for themselves and a trauma kit for victims. And SAT has unlimited air ambulance capacity. And the L1TCs have the bed space and pediatric trauma specialists.

It sucks all around. Big ol’ donkey dicks. And it’ll happen again.

 

[Renegade]

@toddnjoyce

There was a 48 minute video that started at 1143, and the barrage of shooting was over when video started. There were 4-5 more shots about 25 min in, then nothing for 23 minutes or so. The they entered but that shooting was not on video.