Tactical Shotgun Reloading

[texas_teacher]

I'm average size 6' 195 and at my widest point is about 7 inches so it seems to me 12" would be overpenetration. I know bird shot is efective from about 15 feet I scattered peices of a jackrabbit all over a barbedwire fence so I'm certain it would work on an intruder.

This is true 12" of penetration would be overpenetration... but that's through gel... but with birdshot a button, a rib, a sternum, a crowbar, birdshot wouldn't do it... 00 and a nice slug would definitely do the trick... maybe overdo it... but even overdone it's still done... it's not like with shot you need to be worried about it going in and out and then into another... it'll go in and if it goes out it ain't going anywhere else...

 

[dee]

This is true 12" of penetration would be overpenetration... but that's through gel... but with birdshot a button, a rib, a sternum, a crowbar, birdshot wouldn't do it... 00 and a nice slug would definitely do the trick... maybe overdo it... but even overdone it's still done... it's not like with shot you need to be worried about it going in and out and then into another... it'll go in and if it goes out it ain't going anywhere else...

That would probally depend on your velocity my reloads move pretty fast compared to factory loads.

 

[Big country]

The velocity is great on birds. But when there is an intruder in your home do want just enough to hurt him or do you want to drop him and end the threat? I want to drop him and end the threat. I hung shit rock for a while and I can fix my walls. But I cant replace my family. I would not trust my life to bird shot no mater how fast it's flying. and yes, point blank range bird shot makes a big jagged hole. But at close range a slug, 00, or even 000 would have more pumf.

 

[dee]

Unles your shooting from a distance of more than 20' you are useing alot of overkill my family safty is why I would use birdshot, unless nobody else is in the house then overpenetration is nothing to worry about but my logic is based on other occupants in the house and their safety.

 

[Texas42]

ahhhhhhhhhhh

 

[texas_teacher]

You could always self-load with razorblades... that will always be an awesome deterrant for the badguy to hang around to wait around for the second shot...

 

[Big country]

If you load bird shot for home/self defence you are taking a 50/50 chance that it will not work. I'm not saying it wont work, I've read stories from Africa about a lioness getting half of her head blown off by a 20 ga with # 8 shot. Does this mean it is a good idea to go lion hunting with a 20 ga loaded with bird shot? No. If the load you choose to defend with rifle, shotgun or handgun will not penetrate sheet rock it will not stop a bad guy. If it will go deep enough to stop the BG it will penetrate sheet rock walls. If bird shot is to be effective it would have to be at a closer range than I want to be, and I would rather have a pistol when I get there rather than a shotgun.

 

[dee]

You must have a pretty big house if your not at close range with your home defense shotty.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I highly recommend reading this:

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com

While it is focused somewhat on handguns, the physiological wounding factors are going to be the same as far as what incapacitates and how.

Here's the cliffnotes. There are a handful of factors determining what stops a human being. The ONLY one that can guarantee a nearly instantaneous stop 99.9% of the time is a shot to the central nervous system or the upper spinal cord (above the shoulders). That's it. There is no such thing as "stopping power", no such thing as "knockdown power", etc etc. The only other factors in stopping a human being are either psychological, or due to blood loss and/or major damage to vital organs. Other than the CNS or upper spinal shot, blood loss and organ damage can take far too long to disable an attacker, and in many cases even after delivering what may prove to be an unsurvivable shot (in the heart for example), they may still have enough blood flow left to fight for even up to a minute or 2.

So lets recap. These are the ONLY basic factors which determine how a human being can be stopped:

-CNS or upper spinal shot
-Blood loss
-Vital organ damage
-Psychological

Here's where bird shot loses out. Birdshot and other light loads generally have very shallow penetration. Yeah, the average person shot by any shotgun load at home defense distances is going to sh*t their pants, freak out, and probably fall on the ground crying as they would be in absolute shock. That's the psychological factor, but you can't and shouldn't count on that as it's the most unpredictable. All it takes is that one time that the attacker is hopped up on PCP or is just an incredibly determined attacker, doesn't feel the pain, and continues to fight. Determination is a funny thing like that, and the human body is resilient and can handle insane amounts of abuse. I take no chances, so it's OO or OOO buck for me and good quality JHP's in the handgun, and the headshot is ALWAYS on the table as a last resort. May not be pleasant to think about but, at home defense distances, you don't have time to play around. If you awake in the middle of the night to an intruder with a knife, for example, and you shoot them and they don't stop, you need them stopped NOW and not a few seconds from now.

Here's the even more condensed self defense Cliff notes (sure to ruffle a few feathers lol):

-Bird shot sucks
-Glaser safety slugs are absolute crap
-Taurus Judge's with .410 shotshells are absolute trash for self defense
-Knockdown power and stopping power do not exist
-.45acp does not vaporize people
-9mm is just fine for self defense
-Shot placement and a determined mindset are the most important factors
-Knives are a much bigger threat (from an attacker) than guns in some cases
-racking a shotgun for the "noise" is bullsh*t and will likely never be heard, and should never be counted on as a deterrence

 

[Texas42]

it was intersting what that paper had to say about expansion of bullets. Never really thought of it as gravy.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Judging by your avatar Texas42, I take it you are a Firefly fan? I love that show, just wish there was more than one season.

 

[GM.Chief]

Judging by your avatar Texas42, I take it you are a Firefly fan? I love that show, just wish there was more than one season.

And a movie. Serenity.

 

[texas_teacher]

-Bird shot sucks
-Glaser safety slugs are absolute crap
-Taurus Judge's with .410 shotshells are absolute trash for self defense
-Knockdown power and stopping power do not exist
-.45acp does not vaporize people
-9mm is just fine for self defense
-Shot placement and a determined mindset are the most important factors
-Knives are a much bigger threat (from an attacker) than guns in some cases
-racking a shotgun for the "noise" is bullsh*t and will likely never be heard, and should never be counted on as a deterrence

Okay in response to your notes... the last one I completely agree with... although it is a cool sound mine is always chambered because let's face it... if the gun is out you need to be ready to use it.... bullets work fine, the only factor is the number you need to use and actually do use... like you said shot placement and a determination to stop this person are the only things that matter... and finally I will empty a clip of Glaser's into someone before that headshot... and yes a knife is a huge threat and drugs are prevalent in our world (had to kick a couple of parents out of a conference because of this)... but the other fact is that home break-ins are on the rise and there is more than one perpetrator in most of these cases... that might cause concern for the person that only loads one magazine for their HD handgun, or use their hunting shotgun with only 3 rounds... etc. This is the time that each and every person needs to take action in their home... door sensors, windows sensors, laminate, dogs, etc... they are simple steps to take so that when that time comes and it crosses from jiggling a window to entering the house you are there with loads in hand and ready to defend your family...

[url]http://ezinearticles.com/?Home-Break-Ins-Are-on-the-Rise-and-the-Pattern-Has-Changed&id=1830291[/URL]

 

[dee]

For what its worth most buckshot has little to no more velocity than pheasant loads or turkey loads.

 

[Texas42]

How fast a projectile goes before it enters your target has very little to do with anything. The problem with birdshot has to do with density (sectional density to be exact). If you had birdshot that was made of uranium, I'm sure it would do fine.

But the pellets are made of lead or steel and are small and light for their size. The larger buckshot doesn't have a whole lot bigger caliber, but the weight is a lot higher relative. That is why they penetrate more. This is the reason that heavier bullets of a particular caliber will penetrate more than lighter bullets, even though the lighter bullets travel significantly faster.

That being said. if you want to use birdshot, internet warriors (like myself) aren't going to convince you otherwise. If I had to use birdshot, I'd aim for areas had large arteries really superficial (like where you feel for your corotid [neck] and femoral [groin/thigh] pulses).

 

[Texas42]

Judging by your avatar Texas42, I take it you are a Firefly fan? I love that show, just wish there was more than one season.

I love Firefly, though I wish they had a COMPLETE season.

My brother convinced me to go havies on the season with him and I don't think I've spent better money.

I'm kinda sad that Serenity killed any chance of a second season, but I'll take one good season. I like Castle with Nathan Fillion, though there was only ten episodes of that. I heard they are making a new season. I don't know if I like the series or if I just miss Firefly.

 

[texas_teacher]

How fast a projectile goes before it enters your target has very little to do with anything. The problem with birdshot has to do with density (sectional density to be exact). If you had birdshot that was made of uranium, I'm sure it would do fine.

But the pellets are made of lead or steel and are small and light for their size. The larger buckshot doesn't have a whole lot bigger caliber, but the weight is a lot higher relative. That is why they penetrate more. This is the reason that heavier bullets of a particular caliber will penetrate more than lighter bullets, even though the lighter bullets travel significantly faster.

That being said. if you want to use birdshot, internet warriors (like myself) aren't going to convince you otherwise. If I had to use birdshot, I'd aim for areas had large arteries really superficial (like where you feel for your corotid [neck] and femoral [groin/thigh] pulses).

Whatever you're loading a neckshot will more than likely slow someone down... if not bring them to a complete stop...

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I hate to say it but, Glasers offer subpar performance:

The Box O' Truth #4 - Miscellaneous Rounds Meet the Box O' Truth
Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/357 Magnum Glaser.jpg
MagSafe, Glaser, Quik-Shok, BeeSafe -- Prefragmented Bullets: Dangerously Inadequate for Personal Defense
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf

They amount to little more than using those CCI pistol shotshells.

 

[Texas1911]

How fast a projectile goes before it enters your target has very little to do with anything. The problem with birdshot has to do with density (sectional density to be exact). If you had birdshot that was made of uranium, I'm sure it would do fine.

Speed has a very big effect on wounding, moreso than sectional density. That's why rounds like .204 Ruger, .223 Remington, and others are effective.

Sectional density just translates into inertia. Speed equates quickly into energy, which is delivered via hydraulic shock on the body. That's why when you hit a jack rabbit with a .204 Ruger in the chest, it's head shoots about 10' in the air and it's chest cavity turns into pink mist and meaty bit shrapnel. Shoot the same rabbit with a .45 or 9mm and all you get is a nice 1" hole. Both are effective in their own way.

Birdshot is just not effective because it lacks inertia (low mass which means poor sectional density), and sufficient velocity and geometry to create hydraulic shock. It's like shooting someone with a pellet gun 300 times, LOL.

Hit center mass, odds are the person would die from all the holes and overall trauma, but it wouldn't be immediate.

I would not recommend bird shot beyond shooting someone in the face. A face shot would blind someone, if not kill them. This is why some guides will tell you to load birdshot as the first round against dangerous animals like bears; for the same purpose, blinding it, while you unload slugs into it.

 

[texas_teacher]

I hate to say it but, Glasers offer subpar performance:

The Box O' Truth #4 - Miscellaneous Rounds Meet the Box O' Truth
Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds
[url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/357%20Magnum%20Glaser.jpg[/URL]
MagSafe, Glaser, Quik-Shok, BeeSafe -- Prefragmented Bullets: Dangerously Inadequate for Personal Defense
[url]http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf[/URL]

They amount to little more than using those CCI pistol shotshells.

That definitely makes me rethink what I load in my magazines... my double-barrel however I haven't completely decided on what will be chambered inside of that beauty...