10 mm. advantages?

[SIG_Fiend]

That is one reason why I always checked out an 870 from the armory whenever I was on patrol. The sound of chambering a round can be a real attention getter. Been known to stop the fight right then.

BTW, which APD was that? Austin, Abilene, Amarillo, etc.?

Austin. It was in regards to an active shooter with an AK about a month ago, that shot a woman coming out of her house completely at random, and I can't remember what else he did. I think it was North/Northeast Austin. The story should be back a few pages in our News Articles section.

 

[M. Sage]

My question is: What leads you to believe the 9mm is just as effective as some of these other, larger rounds, when these stats would indicate the opposite (or am I missing something entirely)? Also, as this testing is - I suspect - a bit dated, what is the current thinking with regards to optimal penetration depth, over-penetration, and expansion characteristics? Of course, any additional info/stats you feel to be pertinent is much appreciated as well.

Thanks very much in advance.

Man, you're stretching the limits of my brain. I've read a lot, but definitely not a real "expert". But I'll give it a stab.

I've yet to hear anything to contradict the FBI's preference for penetration depth of between 12 and 16 inches in calibrated ballistic gelatin, so I have to consider it still valid.

On over-penetration. Different sources I've found suggest that handgun bullets that perform to these specifications are often (usually?) trapped by the skin on the other side of a bad guy. The skin is elastic enough that when the bullet, slowed as it is by traveling through the body hits the other side, the skin simply stretches away and acts kind of like a net. I don't have much use for the term "over-penetration", really. Even if you manage to punch a round all the way through, you're just allowing blood loss to work at faster rate due to the extra avenue for escaping the body. But beyond that, there are excellent things to hit behind the heart and lungs - the descending aorta, the spine, another shot at cracking ribs and the muscles in the back (which are way more important than anybody who hasn't ever had a back injury can ever realize) - some of these are better than others to hit (spinal column hit for the win!) obviously, but all are at least good to see damaged on an enemy.

According to FBI's studies and many wound ballistics gurus, penetration is more important than expanded diameter - if it doesn't hit vital organs, blood vessels and structures, it's not going to do a lot. The thing I like about that table is that it shows wound volumes. The smallest I see is just under 2 cubic inches and the largest is just under 7. That's the jump between the worst .380 (when many 9mm perform at around 2) and the best .45 ACP (many perform around 5). All that tells us is that the best .45 we can shoot will crush approximately 3 times as much tissue as the worst .380 we can stuff in our pocket. Sounds impressive, except... That extra crushed tissue is partly due to an extra 2 inches of penetration and the rest is going to be spread out along almost a foot of wound tract. I don't find that terribly impressive, to be honest. Is the .45 better on paper? According to this it is, but human tissues appear to be slightly more elastic than this stuff. Here's a good read that covers this in better detail than I think I can:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

I can't find any other gelatin tests where they check the volume of the cavity, but to me the volumes involved in handguns doesn't really vary a whole lot. Ignore the extremes and a huge number of those on that chart are in a pretty close volume range.

 

[ratsno1]

This is exactly why I am a major believer in the 9x23. More power, speed, etc..

 

[guy lemmond]

i own three 10 mm pistols and like all of them.
they shoot flatter than the .45 acp and are entirely adequate for wild hogs. i carry my 1006 s&w so as to avoid wearing the finish on my model 29 or custom shop colt or python or...you get the drift.
armalloy wears less than blue.
my delta elite is a delight to shoot.
the parker stainless i take out when it rains but it shoots both .40 smith and 10mm by swapping barrels.

 

[guy lemmond]

pistol recoil causes arthritis?
horse crap.
i own and use an 048 stihl chain saw and run and enjoy a direct drive d-4 cat.
i broke my right arm falling out of a tree in 2001 during an ice storm and arthritis just gives me an excuse for another iota of tequila in my orange juice.
the 10mm does not kick enough to worry anyone. 2 inch "snubbys" do.
..but no 10mm i have ever shot does.

 

[guy lemmond]

9x23..is that the 9mm largo?

 

[ratsno1]

Hey guy, take a look at these two sites. The 9x23 has an interesting history. This is a good write up on the caliber.

Burns Custom Pistols

Pistolsmith Gun Forum - Pistolsmiths Gun Forum

 

[ratsno1]

Hey guy,
A little more info on the Burns Custom Pistols site. Look at the bottom left of the home page under information. There is a line titled "All about the 9x23". Good reading.

 

[Wolfwood]

hehe i jsut had a conversation with a "cop" the other night.

he is more like a glorified security guard roid head with a sense of entitlement and a chip on each shoulder. (it was ina s ocial setting i wasnt in trouble)

firs toff to give you a good idea of what iwas dealing with, he was showing me one of his "toys" before handing it to me he removed the magazine and then cleared the chamber. handed it to me and i immediately re-checked it. "what? you dont trust me?" or something along those lines. I mean seriously, safety first right? i recheck myself 3-4 times each time i handle a weapon. whether to assure myself it is unloaded, or loaded.

ANYWAY, I noticed his weapon was a .40
so i asked why he went with a .40, cheap PD ammo or what you know? fair question.

SO he launcehd into this diatribe about how the .40 S&W ("forty es and double ewe" LOL) has ultimate knock down power and on and on.

anyway this is kindof a hijack, but since i started the thread i dont care.

i mentioned that ballistically the 9mm performs about the same. And when i shoot anyhting with more moxie than tin cans, i like to use +p or even +p+ and that is about on par with 357 mag. (i am almost sure this is correct...) and as AKAIK better penetration than the .40.

well ofcourse all of this is obviously incorrect. lol
apparently the 'boys at the office' refer to the 9mm NATO as "the woman's caliber"
IIRC that was reserved for the .32 acp....

when he told me that the 9mm had absolutely no stopping power whatsoever, i asked if he had any real life experiance with this.
i got a couple of the obligatory "well a buddy of mine..." stories.
nothing like solid numbers to win an argument.

so finally i asked him the ultimate question i asked "Well, which is more important out on the street in your opinion, Caliber, or shot placement?"


and this is the scary part guys,

he said "Caliber"

yep...

he has a badge to go with that glock...

 

[Wolfwood]

heheh at that point i said "wow, i never thought of it that way. i guess that's why you're the cop and not me eh?"

 

[SIG_Fiend]

9x23 is a good caliber, and it's unfortunate it's not more common. Though, it still is just a pistol round. There are plenty of examples, especially from war time, of people taking multiple rifle rounds, and even large caliber rifle rounds and still continuing to fight. Bottom line, shot placement, keep shooting them to the ground. Here's an example of just what's capable when you put your mind to it and don't give up:

Roy Benavidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YouTube - Magpul - Reality Check

 

[hunto]

9x25 Dillon, sold by Doubletap:

DoubleTap Ammunition
DoubleTap Ammunition
DoubleTap Ammunition

125gr HP @ 1700 FPS for 802 ft/lbs.

The conversion barrel for a G20 is $114.
DoubleTap Ammunition

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I had never heard of this / these calibers......is it 9x23, or 9x25, or is there both????

 

[Peter M. Eick]

9x23 is a suped up 38 super without the rim.
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm. Great caliber but too much muzzle blast for most folks.

One thing that has not been really covered on the 10mm is the flexibility as a reloader. I can load my 10mm's at full power and far exceed anything a 45 can do and approach a mild 41 magnum load. I can load them down to 40 S&W levels or even down to 45 Hard ball levels. If I really want to go mild I can load my 10mm's down to 9mm power levels and just barely get the slide to run.

To me this is the advantage of the 10mm. I can go hunting with it, I can carry it, I can target shoot with it, and all with the same gun. Not many calibers have the level of flexibility.

 

[Wolfwood]

9x23 is a suped up 38 super without the rim.
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm. Great caliber but too much muzzle blast for most folks.

One thing that has not been really covered on the 10mm is the flexibility as a reloader. I can load my 10mm's at full power and far exceed anything a 45 can do and approach a mild 41 magnum load. I can load them down to 40 S&W levels or even down to 45 Hard ball levels. If I really want to go mild I can load my 10mm's down to 9mm power levels and just barely get the slide to run.

To me this is the advantage of the 10mm. I can go hunting with it, I can carry it, I can target shoot with it, and all with the same gun. Not many calibers have the level of flexibility.

good posting.

 

[M. Sage]

9x23 is a suped up 38 super without the rim.
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm. Great caliber but too much muzzle blast for most folks.

One thing that has not been really covered on the 10mm is the flexibility as a reloader. I can load my 10mm's at full power and far exceed anything a 45 can do and approach a mild 41 magnum load. I can load them down to 40 S&W levels or even down to 45 Hard ball levels. If I really want to go mild I can load my 10mm's down to 9mm power levels and just barely get the slide to run.

To me this is the advantage of the 10mm. I can go hunting with it, I can carry it, I can target shoot with it, and all with the same gun. Not many calibers have the level of flexibility.

Very good point.

 

[Texas42]

9x23 is a suped up 38 super without the rim.
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm. Great caliber but too much muzzle blast for most folks.

One thing that has not been really covered on the 10mm is the flexibility as a reloader. I can load my 10mm's at full power and far exceed anything a 45 can do and approach a mild 41 magnum load. I can load them down to 40 S&W levels or even down to 45 Hard ball levels. If I really want to go mild I can load my 10mm's down to 9mm power levels and just barely get the slide to run.

To me this is the advantage of the 10mm. I can go hunting with it, I can carry it, I can target shoot with it, and all with the same gun. Not many calibers have the level of flexibility.

Do you have to mess with the gun to get it to function? Going between light 40 S&W loads and light 41 magnum loads is a fairly big divide. Cool either way.

 

[Texas1911]

Do you have to mess with the gun to get it to function? Going between light 40 S&W loads and light 41 magnum loads is a fairly big divide. Cool either way.

In some platforms you'd want to change out the recoil springs, like a Delta Elite. The Glocks for the most part can take the abuse since the soft frame dampens the slide impact versus the steel on steel peening and resulting slide stress you get in a 1911.

Pretty cheap and easy to do so.

 

[Danton]

9x23 is a suped up 38 super without the rim.
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm. Great caliber but too much muzzle blast for most folks.

One thing that has not been really covered on the 10mm is the flexibility as a reloader. I can load my 10mm's at full power and far exceed anything a 45 can do and approach a mild 41 magnum load. I can load them down to 40 S&W levels or even down to 45 Hard ball levels. If I really want to go mild I can load my 10mm's down to 9mm power levels and just barely get the slide to run.

To me this is the advantage of the 10mm. I can go hunting with it, I can carry it, I can target shoot with it, and all with the same gun. Not many calibers have the level of flexibility.

Excellent point that I had not considered. I don't reload - never felt the need, especially with the 10mm when Double Tap produces so many outstanding rounds for different purposes, such as the 180 or 200 grain controlled expansion for the woods (or even the 200 grain WFNGC), and a bunch of others for CC. The 165 grain is hard to beat - it uniformly expands to ~ 1", 1400fps/718ft.lbs, and penetrates clothed gel 14.25". I'm not aware of another round on the market that has better performance against 2-legged critters (although the DT website says of the 10mm 125 grain Barnes TAC-XP: "This is probably the the best personal defense load in existence."). Looking at the numbers you posted, and the data on the website, the 9X25 is a pretty impressive round that I need to investigate further, especially since Glock makes it so easy to convert the G20 to it. Thanks very much for the info! How would you compare the recoil, muzzle flash, etc, of, say, the 9X25 125 grain vs some of DT's 10mm loads? Also, obviously being very well-versed in different 10mm loads, have you tried the DT "Equalizer"? I've fired a box through two different pistols and gotten very good results, and would love to get another opinion - particularly from someone experienced in reloading - on the whole "2 projectile" concept. Thanks again.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

No you don't have to mess with the gun "with in reason". If I go all the way down wimp 40's rounds in my 10mm then I can get occasionaly failures during the ejection cycle.

I like going for full power 10mm's most of the time. This is about 20% more then what most commercial 10mm's are loaded to. I really don't like the 40 power levels though. Seems like a waste of a perfectly good .400 cal bullet to toss it out so slow. I "can" do it but I tend not to. The fun of the 10mm is the power. If I want to go weak, I tend to go to for a minor caliber like a 9mm.

When I first started shooting 10's it was becasue I bought 40's and wanted more power. I just switched to 10mm and started loading it to different power levels. I then went through the obligatory 10mm nuclear phase where I made rounds that would make a 41mag blush. After I got over trying to make my 10mm into a 41 mag, I started trying to master the 10mm as frankly I was not that good at it and I could not really control the gun well. Finally, I realized that I needed to load up to full power level 10mm's go for accuracy and practice, practice and practice some more.

This is where I am at today. I have some great 1911 format custom 10mm's and I am getting where I can shoot them pretty darn well (nothing like 20,000 rounds of dedicated shooting to set you straight).

The key learnings along the way.
1) Don't buy a 40 short and weak if you want a 10mm. You will never be satisfied.
2) Don't buy a 10mm if you really want a 41 mag. You will never be satisfied.
3) Don't buy a 45 if you want a 10mm. You will never be satisfied.
4) Buy a 10mm if you reload.
5) As a reloader, the 10mm is exceptionally flexible, can go down to 9mm up to 45 and can get to power levels that make a 41 mag blush.
6) Recognize that the 10mm is about the limits of what most shooters can control with a lot of practice.