7.62 x 39 Saiga AK

[Younggun]

Common practice maybe, but there are things wrong with it.

Like what?

 

[breakingcontact]

I say whatever works best for you. I have an 11B friend who rocked it like that for CQB overseas. Quicker i guess? Less recoil control though.

 

[M. Sage]

Like what?

Less recoil control, less control of the muzzle overall especially when you swing the rifle faster. There's a reason competitive shooters are way out there on the hand guard. Everybody the support hand way out front is a newer rifle thing, but really it's an old shotgunner thing that someone realized applied just as well to any long arm where you need to move the muzzle around.

I've seen experiments done (yes, with ARs, but as the shotgun/rifle thing suggests, this isn't platform-dependent) where people shot holding the magazine well and holding their hand farther out on the hand guard. Hand guard was consistently faster moving from target to target. Yes, in varying degrees depending on shooter and angular distance between the targets, but consistently faster none the less.

Don't know about you, but if it's shot or be shot, I'm going with faster over slower any day and twice on Sunday.

Blame it on physics. You've got moment of inertia and leverage working against letting you move (and then stop) the rifle the further back you hold it, and you reduce the effect of inertia and gain leverage over the rifle's mass and any muzzle rise or other movement under recoil by holding further forward.

It's kind of like how putting both hands high on a pistol and maximizing contact in the "thumbs forward" grip is better than the "teacup" method. It maximizes the amount of control by letting your support hand do more work more efficiently.

Here I was being a bit of a smartass, and it turns into a physics lesson.

I say whatever works best for you. I have an 11B friend who rocked it like that for CQB overseas. Quicker i guess? Less recoil control though.

Feels quicker (maybe because you have to work harder?) but as above, measurably slower. 11Bs might still be learning to hold the magazine well, but guys on higher tiers are learning a lot different method. It'll probably be 5 or so years before the average 11B learns to square the hell up, get his hand off his rifle's magazine well and to hold a pistol properly...

Of course, by that time, something faster will probably come along and start the slow process of filtering through the hide-bound, "It was good enough in my day!" BS of mil and LE training.

 

[breakingcontact]

An M4 is pretty awkward while trying to use in a vehicle, im not sure if a lot of the military stuff we see is due to being in and out of vehicles. I notice a lot of mil guys run the vert grip way back right in front of the mag well. Also, main line mil units dont have mid or rifle length gas systems and/or hand guards to hold the support arm way out...not since they took away our M16A2s...

On a side note to note to keep this AK relatwd, ive noticed AK prices dropping some.

 

[craftkr]

An M4 is pretty awkward while trying to use in a vehicle, im not sure if a lot of the military stuff we see is due to being in and out of vehicles. I notice a lot of mil guys run the vert grip way back right in front of the mag well. Also, main line mil units dont have mid or rifle length gas systems and/or hand guards to hold the support arm way out...not since they took away our M16A2s...

On a side note to note to keep this AK relatwd, ive noticed AK prices dropping some.

Good points on the shorter gas systems and not being able to position your hand as forward as you would like.
Tactical shooting is one thing. But watch how military folks hold their weapons while working checkpoints or patroling etc. Its habit forming in holding the weapon closer to the reciever while performing other task I.e. patrols, squad tactics, running, working checkpoints etc. And depending on the amount of gear worn. Plate carriers with plates and chest rigs make it difficult for some to apply the arm out posture. Unless they have longer arms. Over the duration of a mission or operational evolution you get tired and acustom to holding your weapon. And when you do encounter etc. You will do what your used to.

And yes prices on AK's are dropping.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

 

[M. Sage]

An M4 is pretty awkward while trying to use in a vehicle, im not sure if a lot of the military stuff we see is due to being in and out of vehicles. I notice a lot of mil guys run the vert grip way back right in front of the mag well. Also, main line mil units dont have mid or rifle length gas systems and/or hand guards to hold the support arm way out...not since they took away our M16A2s...

On a side note to note to keep this AK relatwd, ive noticed AK prices dropping some.

Like I noted above, the Big Army's training lags quite a ways behind. I've heard the M4 sucks for vehicle patrols, and know of a SF guy who used an AKS-74U for that stuff, just because it was easier getting in and out, and the Humvee had all the firepower anyway. He just needed something to get him back to the truck.

If you look at Kyle Lamb's book, Green Eyes and Black Rifles, he's got pictures of himself and his rifle. He'd put a long free float tube on his weapon for a reason. The average grunt doesn't even get to change his stock if he wants to (funny enough, the CAR stock seems to be a better choice with body armor), so he's got to run a less than optimal rifle with training that's usually years behind its time.

 

[40Arpent]

Old habits die hard, especially bad ones.

 

[breakingcontact]

I try not to jump on bandwagons, nor be a crumudgeon. A lot of military shooting is done from less than ideal positions so the support arm way forward (does this have a proper name? Mag Pul cool guy grip) isnt always ideal. I was never in combat so not speaking from experience. 95% of my M4/M16A2 time was from the super realistic for modern combat foxhole and prone positions.

Im just saying what works for home defense, combat in one theatre vs another, police work, gun games...it may all be different. I definitely dont propose that im an expert. Im still trying to figure out if i want a verticle grip and ive got a carbine length upper so what do i know.

 

[M. Sage]

I try not to jump on bandwagons, nor be a crumudgeon. A lot of military shooting is done from less than ideal positions so the support arm way forward (does this have a proper name? Mag Pul cool guy grip) isnt always ideal. I was never in combat so not speaking from experience. 95% of my M4/M16A2 time was from the super realistic for modern combat foxhole and prone positions.

Im just saying what works for home defense, combat in one theatre vs another, police work, gun games...it may all be different. I definitely dont propose that im an expert. Im still trying to figure out if i want a verticle grip and ive got a carbine length upper so what do i know.

Nope, what works works. And Magpul "cool guys" didn't come up with it. Competitive shooters did, and it's translated so well that this is what you'll find dudes in Delta and the SEALs doing.

But what do guys who shoot a case of ammo a day in training know vs guys who shoot a few mags a year, right?

 

[breakingcontact]

Nope, what works works. And Magpul "cool guys" didn't come up with it. Competitive shooters did, and it's translated so well that this is what you'll find dudes in Delta and the SEALs doing.

But what do guys who shoot a case of ammo a day in training know vs guys who shoot a few mags a year, right?

Not discrediting the technique or those who apply it. Just saying different factors may call for different techniques. For me with long arms and a carbine, it doesnt work well as i dont have handguard out far enough. Im sure with a chest rig and plate carrier it would push the gun out farther.

Im not against evolving techniques. When i started shooting pistols i looked like a WW2 training film. I now have some sort of modern stance and grip.

Are bullpups quicker on target due to shorter length?

 

[M. Sage]

Not discrediting the technique or those who apply it. Just saying different factors may call for different techniques. For me with long arms and a carbine, it doesnt work well as i dont have handguard out far enough. Im sure with a chest rig and plate carrier it would push the gun out farther.

That's why adjustable stocks exist. The A2 stock is simply too long unless you're 6'6"... It's also why free float hand guards that go over the gas block exist. I've posted pics of my AR before. 16" barrel, 15" hand guard. I'm 5'10", so my arms aren't that long.

Im not against evolving techniques. When i started shooting pistols i looked like a WW2 training film. I now have some sort of modern stance and grip.

Are bullpups quicker on target due to shorter length?

I've never measured or seen anybody measure the difference between bullpups and regular rifles, but I'll say they're very maneuverable, quick to target and at least in the case of the AUG platform, easy to keep on target. If you haven't tried one, the balance seems crazy at first, with all the weight seemingly at your shoulder, but you can hold the suckers on target forever, and muzzle rise seems to be a total non-issue. The two down sides I can think of are that most types are something you don't want to switch shoulders with (specific exceptions for the FN F2000 and P90, even if the P90 is pretty much flinging overpriced .22 mag downrange, and honorable mention to the Kel Tec RFB though it probably won't function through more than a couple of magazines...) and changing mags isn't always very efficient (especially the P90 but the Tavor seems pretty good here).

I wouldn't mind getting a few bullpups, a pallet of ammo and a shot timer together and testing it sometime. Wanna fund it?

 

[breakingcontact]

Good call. I need to extend my stock out and try again. I will have to figure out a different light setup but i do try to accept modern ways when met with overwhelming evidence.

 

[M. Sage]

I'm more or less a believer in the "nose to charging handle" thing, though if you're at the mounting limits of your optics and have to adjust for eye relief, that's the final arbiter.

 

[breakingcontact]

I'm more or less a believer in the "nose to charging handle" thing, though if you're at the mounting limits of your optics and have to adjust for eye relief, that's the final arbiter.

I need to shoot a 3 gun match and learn how to shoot with the arm out in front more. Its just awkward to me and i must be doing something wrong. I feel like im chicken winging it.

Also need to get an AK and on and on...

 

[Big Phil]

Actually the Rhodesians were doing it in the 70's

 

[breakingcontact]

Ive got a photo from the American Revolution showing them holding their muskets that way too.

 

[M. Sage]

I need to shoot a 3 gun match and learn how to shoot with the arm out in front more. Its just awkward to me and i must be doing something wrong. I feel like im chicken winging it.

Also need to get an AK and on and on...

Just put your support arm in basically the same position you use when you shoot a pistol. I support most of my rifle's weight with my right hand by pulling back on the pistol grip, so my left hand is what's aiming the rifle. Hand position comes down to personal preference. Some people will point their index finger along the barrel, some will get their wrist above the bore with most of their hand on top of the rifle, some will be more under.

It does feel crazy at first. Just remember to keep your support side shoulder relaxed.

Actually the Rhodesians were doing it in the 70's

Yep. That FAL kicks like a freakin' mules with lots of muzzle rise, so that totally makes sense for them to do it. It's also a fairly heavy rifle.

When I got the chance to play with a HK93, I had trouble holding the sights on target until I put my hand way out there on the handguard. That was back when I was still a believer in holding the magazine well area.

 

[SMELLNROSES]

a lot of things wrong with it? Please enlighten us?

Common practice maybe, but there are things wrong with it.

 

[breakingcontact]

a lot of things wrong with it? Please enlighten us?

Read post #23

 

[M. Sage]

a lot of things wrong with it? Please enlighten us?

In a word, physics.