BIGPAPIGREG
TGT Addict
This may give a little insight as to what may have helped spawned this Thread from WTK....
Taurus pt\22 jamming issue repaired
Taurus pt\22 jamming issue repaired
Ain't no Downrange in Real Life
- Thread starter WTK
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Yep! Definitely a negligence issue by the person handling the weapon.
This is a discussion about defensive firearms training and use, so it would be obtuse of me to point out (again) that this rule simply doesn't exist in some formal target shooting contexts.
I obviously don't mind being obtuse.
The phrasing of this one always bugs me. There really should be a clause in there about what's in front of your target, shouldn't there? In a moving situation, it's very possible for something to get between me and what I want to shoot. I really think the rule should simply be "Be sure of your target" with an implicit understanding that that includes knowing what's beyond, in front of, and beside it, too. Things in those locations can be affected by a shot fired and, thus, should be taken into account before pressing a trigger.
BTW, does anybody here teach the NRA Three Rules? Just curious.
Ben, I agree that if you have much of a forward cant on your holster and bending over or sitting it could be a problem....definitely something to be aware of..
Mine has very little and I no longer bend over....a physical limitation called being old and fat.....
No style of carry is without some inherent risk, however....
Mine has very little and I no longer bend over....a physical limitation called being old and fat.....
No style of carry is without some inherent risk, however....
Honestly, anyone who advocates unsafe handling of a loaded firearm (pointing the barrel into their palm) doesn't have much credibility in my book, and shouldn't be "demonstrating" such techniques on a public venue such as YouTube. It is simply an idiotic thing to do, and I wonder that someone so ignorant to the most basic of firearms safety procedures would also be very likely to point that same barrel at other things. I don't care how smart someone claims they are, I know that the collective wisdom of tens of thousands of firearms instructors trumps whatever brilliance they think they possess. It is much like the reason I no longer shoot at the Bullethole, anyone who doesn't take their own safety or the safety of those around them aren't fit to share the same range as I take my family and friends to. If necessary, I will gladly go somewhere else to avoid such a level of stupidity; and I wish them all the best when they become the next Tex Gruber...
I was unaware of this. Thank you for the information. The critiques of the video are valid and I have nothing to add.
Mexican_Hippie
TGT Addict
Excellent advice.
Where do you purchase your gay, black/native babies for carry? Thinking about holstering one in a Baby Bjorn.
Safer than a plate carrier I hear.
Similar rules to NRA.
1. Always assume it is loaded
2. Always keep it pointed in a safe direction.
3. Finger off the trigger unless you intend to discharge it.
4. Be aware of what the bullet can do if you do discharge it. Who and what is around as well as what could happen with the bullet once you do. Good or bad. Hit or not, will that bullet become inert before it causes unintentional damage.
1. Always assume it is loaded
2. Always keep it pointed in a safe direction.
3. Finger off the trigger unless you intend to discharge it.
4. Be aware of what the bullet can do if you do discharge it. Who and what is around as well as what could happen with the bullet once you do. Good or bad. Hit or not, will that bullet become inert before it causes unintentional damage.
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
When in a holster, the handgun is considered safe. The rule to which you refer is in regards to handling the handgun, not having it sit in a holster.
BIGPAPIGREG
TGT Addict
/thread
With a good quality handgun, in a good quality holster that is properly designed to fully cover the trigger guard, it is typically a physical impossibility for the gun to go off on it's own, UNLESS the trigger is pulled. Take a typical Glock, SIG, H&K, S&W, or most other reputable manufacturer's guns, and if you actually look at the construction and design of built in safety features, such as a firing pin safety or drop safety, you'll see what I mean. Most of the time, the only way you could cause the gun to discharge, would be to slam certain parts of it with such force that you would fracture the firing pin safety (which is typically steel, often forged or otherwise constructed in a durable manner) enough to allow the firing pin to slam forward. The amount of force it might take, would be significant enough that you would probably have much more serious problems to worry about. This is an issue of basic mechanics, and is again, why it's so important to make good choices about your gun and gear.
In terms of muzzle sweeping yourself, when a gun is holstered, with pretty much any on-body method of carry, at some time or another parts of your body are likely crossing in front of the muzzle. If it's IWB or OWB on the waistline, at some point or another when walking, bending, etc. the muzzle is probably crossing your feet. It's just about impossible to avoid that.
I think a lot of the safety problems people have, such as some of the scenarios or examples some of you have mentioned, is often due to people not requiring of themselves that they ALWAYS have a solid firing grip on the gun when it's out of the holster, and don't speed holster. For example, I've seen a LOT of people re-holster in a dangerous manner by not maintaining their strong hand firing grip, and instead loosening their grip, maybe even allowing some of their fingers to come off of the grip, in effect almost dumping the gun in the holster once it gets started in. Not sure if that description will make sense. Anyways, it usually leads to people being much less aware of the holster, what's around it, whether there's clothing in the way, etc. Pretty stupid, when it only takes a second to slow down, glance at the holster, and reholster while maintaining that solid firing grip. People just get lazy, and/or they have no personal standards.
My take on the safety rules is usually something along these lines:
I'm just shortening the phrasing a bit, to keep it more simplistic. In terms of rule 1, my take on it is that people need to treat a gun like it's a gun. Like Jon mentioned, I've also never liked the phrasing of "All firearms are always loaded", as it's a bit irrational in wording. That being said, my personal take on it is that, regardless of whether you know for an absolute fact the gun is clear, have quadruple checked it, had several others check and verify it, that you still treat it like it's a GUN and observe all of the other safety rules. The major point there being not ingraining bad habits, and avoiding Murphy. I see a lot of people think they can do FOF dry, do martial arts or other defensive things training against gun grab attempts or what have you.....and they often do it with a real gun. IMO, in this day and age, and considering the 100% safe training/dummy devices that are available, I see that as totally unprofessional, and worst case, potentially dangerous. A person's SOPs for conducting such training could be practically perfect on paper, but there is always the remote risk that someone will somehow manage to get one live round or mag with a live round into a gun, even if it's unintentional. Totally unnecessary, when you have things like the 5.11 dummy training barrels to replace your live barrel and prevent chambering of a round. Also, blue guns or airsoft guns. Buy the appropriate equipment for the appropriate use, as we're not training in a third world country here. Enough on that.
Rule 2, I usually like to describe as keeping your finger indexed and at the limit of its extension, or "in register", usually while also demoing and/or describing how a person can pick out a feature on the gun such as the barrel hood, a component on the frame (that will not be adversely affected if you are applying pressure to it), etc. that they can use as a reference point. The idea being, don't be casual about being at index, be aggressive, have that trigger finger locked out and/or up on the frame or ejection port/barrel hood if it's something that sits low in your hand. I also typically say "until the gun is on target and you have decided to shoot", or something along those lines. I usually explain or give a few examples of how that definition could apply to multiple circumstances that might be completely different. For example, typically this rule is stated as "sights on target", or something of that nature. I like to explain how "aimed" could constitute the gun indexed on target, such as firing from retention, if you are at extremely close range, and that is totally okay. The point being, they will need to learn their capabilities and how to make the decision of when they have achieved a great enough degree of aiming/indexing the gun on target to make the shot. This will be a bit different for everyone.
Rule 3, usually I like to use a lot of examples to highlight that which is typically unseen, to really drive the point home. I usually mention an incident where an officer in New York state (or maybe NYC, I forget) was supposedly going to clean his duty Glock, ND'd into the floor of his upper story apartment, and hit the crib or near the crib of the sleeping infant in the apartment below him I believe. The point being, what's behind that wall? What's above me? What's below? Think beyond the obvious, and choose the safest option.
Rule 5. If there is one thing I have seen probably the most problems with, it is people's lack of attention to detail or lack of personal standards in observing this rule. When you put your carry gun on to go out and about for the day, did you check the chamber? Did you check the mag? Do you know if it's even loaded? Okay it feels heavy, so it must be loaded, right? Does it even have a round chambered though? All ridiculous questions that could be entirely answered and avoided by taking 2 seconds to check the chamber, check the mag, put the gun in it's appropriate condition, and put it in it's appropriate place. Same goes for casing guns. Did you properly clear that gun before you put it in that case? If not, who knows what you might be pulling out next time, and how wrong it could go? I also like to reinforce the other rules by explaining how this applies to all of them. For example, do you know the status of your trigger finger? Are you properly indexed? What about your muzzle? Is it pointed in the safest direction, or pointed at the appropriate target? What is around your target? Are there bystanders behind your target? Are there people running nearby that could run in front of you while you're trying to fire?
In terms of muzzle sweeping yourself, when a gun is holstered, with pretty much any on-body method of carry, at some time or another parts of your body are likely crossing in front of the muzzle. If it's IWB or OWB on the waistline, at some point or another when walking, bending, etc. the muzzle is probably crossing your feet. It's just about impossible to avoid that.
I think a lot of the safety problems people have, such as some of the scenarios or examples some of you have mentioned, is often due to people not requiring of themselves that they ALWAYS have a solid firing grip on the gun when it's out of the holster, and don't speed holster. For example, I've seen a LOT of people re-holster in a dangerous manner by not maintaining their strong hand firing grip, and instead loosening their grip, maybe even allowing some of their fingers to come off of the grip, in effect almost dumping the gun in the holster once it gets started in. Not sure if that description will make sense. Anyways, it usually leads to people being much less aware of the holster, what's around it, whether there's clothing in the way, etc. Pretty stupid, when it only takes a second to slow down, glance at the holster, and reholster while maintaining that solid firing grip. People just get lazy, and/or they have no personal standards.
My take on the safety rules is usually something along these lines:
- Treat every gun like it's a GUN
- Finger indexed unless you're on target and shooting
- Watch your muzzle
- Know your target, and what is around it (maybe that will address the issue you mentioned, Ben?)
- ALWAYS know the status of your gun at all times (Basically the one unifying rule that applies to all of the other rules)
I'm just shortening the phrasing a bit, to keep it more simplistic. In terms of rule 1, my take on it is that people need to treat a gun like it's a gun. Like Jon mentioned, I've also never liked the phrasing of "All firearms are always loaded", as it's a bit irrational in wording. That being said, my personal take on it is that, regardless of whether you know for an absolute fact the gun is clear, have quadruple checked it, had several others check and verify it, that you still treat it like it's a GUN and observe all of the other safety rules. The major point there being not ingraining bad habits, and avoiding Murphy. I see a lot of people think they can do FOF dry, do martial arts or other defensive things training against gun grab attempts or what have you.....and they often do it with a real gun. IMO, in this day and age, and considering the 100% safe training/dummy devices that are available, I see that as totally unprofessional, and worst case, potentially dangerous. A person's SOPs for conducting such training could be practically perfect on paper, but there is always the remote risk that someone will somehow manage to get one live round or mag with a live round into a gun, even if it's unintentional. Totally unnecessary, when you have things like the 5.11 dummy training barrels to replace your live barrel and prevent chambering of a round. Also, blue guns or airsoft guns. Buy the appropriate equipment for the appropriate use, as we're not training in a third world country here. Enough on that.
Rule 2, I usually like to describe as keeping your finger indexed and at the limit of its extension, or "in register", usually while also demoing and/or describing how a person can pick out a feature on the gun such as the barrel hood, a component on the frame (that will not be adversely affected if you are applying pressure to it), etc. that they can use as a reference point. The idea being, don't be casual about being at index, be aggressive, have that trigger finger locked out and/or up on the frame or ejection port/barrel hood if it's something that sits low in your hand. I also typically say "until the gun is on target and you have decided to shoot", or something along those lines. I usually explain or give a few examples of how that definition could apply to multiple circumstances that might be completely different. For example, typically this rule is stated as "sights on target", or something of that nature. I like to explain how "aimed" could constitute the gun indexed on target, such as firing from retention, if you are at extremely close range, and that is totally okay. The point being, they will need to learn their capabilities and how to make the decision of when they have achieved a great enough degree of aiming/indexing the gun on target to make the shot. This will be a bit different for everyone.
Rule 3, usually I like to use a lot of examples to highlight that which is typically unseen, to really drive the point home. I usually mention an incident where an officer in New York state (or maybe NYC, I forget) was supposedly going to clean his duty Glock, ND'd into the floor of his upper story apartment, and hit the crib or near the crib of the sleeping infant in the apartment below him I believe. The point being, what's behind that wall? What's above me? What's below? Think beyond the obvious, and choose the safest option.
Rule 5. If there is one thing I have seen probably the most problems with, it is people's lack of attention to detail or lack of personal standards in observing this rule. When you put your carry gun on to go out and about for the day, did you check the chamber? Did you check the mag? Do you know if it's even loaded? Okay it feels heavy, so it must be loaded, right? Does it even have a round chambered though? All ridiculous questions that could be entirely answered and avoided by taking 2 seconds to check the chamber, check the mag, put the gun in it's appropriate condition, and put it in it's appropriate place. Same goes for casing guns. Did you properly clear that gun before you put it in that case? If not, who knows what you might be pulling out next time, and how wrong it could go? I also like to reinforce the other rules by explaining how this applies to all of them. For example, do you know the status of your trigger finger? Are you properly indexed? What about your muzzle? Is it pointed in the safest direction, or pointed at the appropriate target? What is around your target? Are there bystanders behind your target? Are there people running nearby that could run in front of you while you're trying to fire?
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Know your target. Be sure of your target. Whatever. They're all good.
I just can't help feeling that if I ever need to shoot to defend myself, there's a chance it will be in a location with people around. When shots are fired, panicky people might run right in front of me. I just want a rule that implicitly reminds us not to get so much tunnel vision that we don't see that the path to and beyond the target is fluid. One moment there may be nothing there and a split second later there might be some innocent running for their life with no idea they've run right in front of a muzzle. If I'm holding the gun, it's up to me to NOT shoot them.
Having been in a couple of very stressful situations where my field of view seemed to collapse into a tunnel, I worry about my ability to remain aware of how the environment around me is changing. Thus, I'm uncomfortable with a simple rule about knowing the target. I don't have a good suggestion as to how to replace it.
I don't think it can be replaced by anything better. Wide-area situational awareness under stress is very, very difficult and no simple rule will ever cover it adequately.
Very good way of describing the ingredients of the flavor I preach!
I know what you mean. The thing I've liked to do for myself, and with some past students, is this. Personally, I've always approached ANY form of handling a gun in such a manner that I want (or I want the student to want) to always be uncomfortable about a gun muzzling anyone (unless I'm absolutely needing to "muzzle" someone, in which case no timidity there), or a finger on a trigger when it's not supposed to be. I mean even to the degree that watching some idiot on YouTube muzzling the camera will cause just a bit of unease, or at least that instantaneous awareness of, "Hey, that guy shouldn't be doing that." Building that subconscious feeling into someone's psyche might involve a lot of little subtleties.
Personally, I feel that a lot of people subconsciously pick up on a lot of different cues when being instructed with firearms. Where I've noticed a number of instructors fail or pass up opportunity in delivering some of those cues, is in possibly being a bit too "casual", and maybe riding a bit too close to the line in terms of things like their own exercise of safety rules. For example, if I was instructing a beginner in basic safety and marksmanship, I might tend to be very rigid in terms of keeping the gun from straying much more than a few degrees from being pointed downrange. I'm not sure if that will make sense, and it's difficult to describe, as the things I'm referring to are very small and very subtle. The point being, in certain cases and for certain classes, I might not be in position sul, "breaking the 180" in position sul, or anything like that. I'm not saying it's necessarily right or the best way, and I could see an argument for the other side as well. Though, I feel like people need to build a solid foundation first, otherwise it's very difficult to correct if they do things beyond their skill level too soon, and/or develop bad habits that could lead to future issues.
Another example, people casing or uncasing their guns with the case facing perpendicular to the firing line. Some people are very "proficient" and subconsciously incompetent at uncasing guns while muzzle sweeping everyone on the firing line. Not a great thing to be proficient in.
Maybe if they instead learned early on to feel very uneasy about that case facing anywhere except downrange, they wouldn't have become great at doing the wrong thing. Furthermore, if their instructor(s) or other range buddies had also not been very loose with the direction their gun cases were facing, maybe they wouldn't have subconsciously picked up on some of those cues and come to the mistaken conclusion that it's an okay thing to do.Please let me know if none of that makes sense. For awhile I've struggled with how to better explain this subject. Hell, it might not even be that big of a deal. I just know, with my own extreme attention to detail, that it's been something that has really helped me grow and really push my personal standards to a high level. It's something I can much more easily demonstrate and describe with a few words in person. I guess an easier way to say it is, if you want someone else to be successful at something, your own actions and behavior should reflect the highest and most proficient exercise of that thing. IE - don't be a lazy ass that lacks standards, otherwise your friends and students will often adopt that behavior, even if they don't realize it.
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