ARs to avoid, which brands are not worth the money?

[AustinN4]

I had to laugh, given our recent exchanges in this thread. I just saw this: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gunsmithing/54462-anyone-austin-gas-key-staking-tool.html

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I've got 2 ARs, put maybe 40 rounds total through them sighting em in...they have been GREAT!








Trying to be humorous, but I'm serious at the same time.

 

[mitchntx]

I had to laugh, given our recent exchanges in this thread. I just saw this: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gunsmithing/54462-anyone-austin-gas-key-staking-tool.html

I read through that when it first started never revisited because "staking" to some seems to require a degree from CSoT. <insert face palm here>

Staking is just bending or cutting into metal to lock the fastner in place.
It requires nothing special ... a center punch, a chisel ... anything to crimp the metal.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Dawico]

Good info here members.

I really do appreciate this thread staying civil and informative.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Not the person you asked, and not the answer you expected, but here is the best lower parts kit on the planet:
G&R Tactical Lower Parts Kits (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical

Too bad they are out of stock but they sell out as quick as they can get them together. They hand sort and inspect each part!

No worries, but why? Again I can undertsand the trigger aspect but aside from that. Are the components machined from higher quality materials? Do they treat them with some sort of chemical strengthening agent? I've used LPK components from CMMG, PSA, and BCM but sitting them side by side by side I couldn't tell you difference in them. I'm just curious when using any LPK from a reputable company vs. DD or G&R what sets apart a mag or bolt catch from one another?

 

[Shorts]

No worries, but why? Again I can undertsand the trigger aspect but aside from that. Are the components machined from higher quality materials? Do they treat them with some sort of chemical strengthening agent? I've used LPK components from CMMG, PSA, and BCM but sitting them side by side by side I couldn't tell you difference in them. I'm just curious when using any LPK from a reputable company vs. DD or G&R what sets apart a mag or bolt catch from one another?

Small parts and parts kits are sourced from a variety of manf. Depending on the materials used, machining practices and QC standards used by the manf. it can have an affect on the finished product. Gun manf. may have a preferred source of components because of this. They do their homework on who are the better rep'd sources.

On small parts it would be tolerances/specs, machining edges and even the final finish. The way this would translate under use if a pin tolerance is larger, chances of a pin not fitting properly into a hole is greater. This could mean the difference of using a hammer to install vs finger tight take down pins. If the steel used for pins were softer, it could mean they wallow out on the contact surfaces and create lateral movements (like a FCG) On a FCG it could be the longevity of springs. It could be the longevity or lack there of on the hardened contact surface of a hammer. On a bolt catch it could be the difference in catching/locking back in spec mag followers. If the steel used to manf. end plates is too brittle, then the end plate cracks and splits when staking. Overall these are small details but if enough of them add up on one rifle it makes the whole rifle feel like a problem.

A similar analogy, look at holster makers and the components and materials they use. In my leather work I prefer to use only certain sources for leather and certain sources for hardware based on the quality. The entirety of the holster is based on the components. Have I built holsters from sub-standard leather and hardware? Absolutely I have. Does the difference in quality and performance show in the finished product and especially years later under use? It does.

Or another analogy, a certain brand vehicle. Parts used on the interior or exterior have an impact on the total quality.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Small parts and parts kits are sourced from a variety of manf. Depending on the materials used, machining practices and QC standards used by the manf. it can have an affect on the finished product. Gun manf. may have a preferred source of components because of this. They do their homework on who are the better rep'd sources.

On small parts it would be tolerances/specs, machining edges and even the final finish. The way this would translate under use if a pin tolerance is larger, chances of a pin not fitting properly into a hole is greater. This could mean the difference of using a hammer to install vs finger tight take down pins. If the steel used for pins were softer, it could mean they wallow out on the contact surfaces and create lateral movements (like a FCG) On a FCG it could be the longevity of springs. It could be the longevity or lack there of on the hardened contact surface of a hammer. On a bolt catch it could be the difference in catching/locking back in spec mag followers. If the steel used to manf. end plates is too brittle, then the end plate cracks and splits when staking. Overall these are small details but if enough of them add up on one rifle it makes the whole rifle feel like a problem.

A similar analogy, look at holster makers and the components and materials they use. In my leather work I prefer to use only certain sources for leather and certain sources for hardware based on the quality. The entirety of the holster is based on the components. Have I built holsters from sub-standard leather and hardware? Absolutely I have. Does the difference in quality and performance show in the finished product and especially years later under use? It does.

Or another analogy, a certain brand vehicle. Parts used on the interior or exterior have an impact on the total quality.

Gotch ya, good to know. Thanks!

 

[AustinN4]

Small parts and parts kits are sourced from a variety of manf. Depending on the materials used, machining practices and QC standards used by the manf. it can have an affect on the finished product. Gun manf. may have a preferred source of components because of this. They do their homework on who are the better rep'd sources.

On small parts it would be tolerances/specs, machining edges and even the final finish. The way this would translate under use if a pin tolerance is larger, chances of a pin not fitting properly into a hole is greater. This could mean the difference of using a hammer to install vs finger tight take down pins. If the steel used for pins were softer, it could mean they wallow out on the contact surfaces and create lateral movements (like a FCG) On a FCG it could be the longevity of springs. It could be the longevity or lack there of on the hardened contact surface of a hammer. On a bolt catch it could be the difference in catching/locking back in spec mag followers. If the steel used to manf. end plates is too brittle, then the end plate cracks and splits when staking. Overall these are small details but if enough of them add up on one rifle it makes the whole rifle feel like a problem.

A similar analogy, look at holster makers and the components and materials they use. In my leather work I prefer to use only certain sources for leather and certain sources for hardware based on the quality. The entirety of the holster is based on the components. Have I built holsters from sub-standard leather and hardware? Absolutely I have. Does the difference in quality and performance show in the finished product and especially years later under use? It does.

Or another analogy, a certain brand vehicle. Parts used on the interior or exterior have an impact on the total quality.

Damn, I just spent 30 minutes typing up a reply and came here to post it and find that you did it better than I did. This is a very good, no, make that excellent explanation of the differences in the actual manufacturing of the parts. I will still post my belated reply as it focuses more on the retailer.

 

[AustinN4]

No worries, but why? Again I can undertsand the trigger aspect but aside from that. Are the components machined from higher quality materials? Do they treat them with some sort of chemical strengthening agent? I've used LPK components from CMMG, PSA, and BCM but sitting them side by side by side I couldn't tell you difference in them. I'm just curious when using any LPK from a reputable company vs. DD or G&R what sets apart a mag or bolt catch from one another?

OK, I admit I was a bit over the top with the best on the planet claim, but you ask a fair question. The "parts is parts" mantra is not necessarily true. There are differences in parts from different manufactures - materials, quality control, out of spec, etc.

Retailers of LPKs do not manufacture the parts in the LPK, they buy parts and assemble the kits or buy the assembled kits from someone that does assemble them.

Since I can't know who makes the best part of every part in a LPK, I have to trust someone to do it for me. Just like when I buy a complete AR I have to trust that the AR assembler sourced and assembled the best parts available, which, as we know isn't always true.

So what it really comes down to for me is knowledge of the retailer and trust that they will not be putting crap parts in the LPKs they put together and sell in order to make another dollar on the sale.

What I get from G&R is their knowledge of who actually manufactures what, and which manufactures offer the best part in terms of in spec, materials, quality control, etc. And it can change over time. Other retailers may take the "parts is parts" approach. I can't speak for each one of them. But I do trust G&R to do it right.

G&R also adds an additional layer of quality control when they put the parts together in a LPK, something that other retailers may or may not do.

 

[tXfactor]

A spread sheet full of features and builds and 600 posts spread between two threads really doesn't answer the questions.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what, specifically, poor quality parts or sloppy installation are you referring?

The only thing I can think of, other than the quirk about the bolt release lever, is a run of improperly staked gas keys which plagued some of these lesser expensive brands a few years ago. I have both DPMS and Rock River issued.

The bolt on the left is a 1 year old Rock River and the bolt on the far right is a 1 year old DPMS issued bolt.

The one in the center is a 4 year old DPMS and the staking is not as pronounced as the newer one on the right.
For what it's worth, the 4 year old AR has close to 6000 rounds through it without a single issue.

Again ... not trying to be argumentative, just wanting to understand the issues that concern you.

They all are properly staked. It doesn't take much contact between the carrier metal and the knurlings on the bolt head to secure it from loosening.

 

[benenglish]

Are these any good?

 

[grumper]

New product I think. Maybe Ben could be our guinea pig and test them out

If normal AR mags, parts and accessories fit on that MMR that alone puts it ahead of Olympic.

And not being Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorn gives it a higher score than those.

 

[AustinN4]

They all are properly staked. It doesn't take much contact between the carrier metal and the knurlings on the bolt head to secure it from loosening.

From the photo it didn't look to me like they were touching, but you probably have younger and better eyes than I do. I like a bit more contact like as is shown on the other 2. In any event, to each his own.

 

[Younggun]

I wouldn't call it a "target" rifle with a 1/9 twist, make a descent coyote gun though.


Assuming it doesn't malfunction. I'd buy one if I had the cash just to test it. Could get your money back easy as soon as the next election cycle starts if you don't like it.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

The largest part of any manufacturer is going to be quality control. Your higher end and more costly brands will usually have better quality consistency, not always better over all quality. For most a bushmaster will perform just as well as a rifle twice its retail.

A large part of failures are user error that get blamed on the rifle too. Whether it be poor maintenance or a mod they messed up. I have seen enough high end rifles be tinkered with and get messed up just as a bushy.

As with all things guns, there's a lot of opinions out there, but don't confuse those opinions with actual quality unless your seeing a trend... like Hi Point for example.

Sent from my EVO 4G LTE using Tapatalk

 

[grumper]

I don't like the Stark grip that comes with that MMR. That's usually what people put on their rifles when Bubba the Custom Gunsmith (it was someone else that put my rifle together, I swear!) busts off the trigger guard ear while smashing the pins into the rifle.

You might get lots of people seeing that grip on your new gun and automatically ask why you broke the trigger guard off.

 

[Mreed911]

New product I think. Maybe Ben could be our guinea pig and test them out

If normal AR mags, parts and accessories fit on that MMR that alone puts it ahead of Olympic.

And not being Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorn gives it a higher score than those.

There's an existing thread on a similar Mossy AR. It points to this review.

That one doesn't appear to include all the "Harris-like" and other off-brand crap this one has.

 

[Jakashh]

avoid Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Larue, LWRC. They're just herrble!

 

[AustinN4]

avoid Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Larue, LWRC. They're just herrble!

You forgot BMC and KAC.

 

[Jakashh]

BCM and KAC, yes. Also in the shit list.