ATF 41F and You....

[Tejano Scott]

So the ATF41F deadlines is next week, all submissions must be postmarked no later than 7/12 to stay within current rules. Curious to get everyone's opinion of how this will impact their future NFA purchases. I've run both sides. At first, I said I would never purchase another NFA item after 7/12. Too much hassle and BS I said to myself. So I made myself a wishlist with all the stuff I wanted to buy pre 41F and went about acquiring those items. As I was reminded last weekend by another member, I once said "after this next can, I'm done". That was 7 Form 4s ago. I have a love for all things NFA.

Therefore, with that said, I publicly announce today on TGT.... I am not done on July 12th. In fact, I am praying that wait times go down because of everyone who professes to be "done" next week. Fingerprint, passport photo, Cleo notice... Pains in the ass no doubt. But they will not stop me. In fact, I may hit up Capitol Armory on the 13th for shits and giggles and buy a new rimfire can. Never can have too many. I say that with soon to be four Form 1s pending and thirteen form 4s.

Hello, my name is Scott. And I am an NFA addict. Please share your stories and thoughts with me. Will you keep buying on July 13th? Will you go from using a trust to individual purchase now that CLEO sign off is gone? Will you make a new trust with less trustees/responsible parties to minimize the hassle? How will 41F change the way you live?

 

[wakal]

My trust was re-written to show only two people...everyone else is now on a separate appointment letter...so only two have to play the retarded fingerprint/picture/paperwork/LE notification game each time.

And I am waiting for the integral silencer/pistol from SilencerCo; that should be my first purchase under our Dear Leader's 41F diktats.

 

[benenglish]

And I am waiting for the integral silencer/pistol from SilencerCo; that should be my first purchase under our Dear Leader's 41F diktats.

That will be my first purchase, period. At pretty much the same time, I need suppressors for a rimfire rifle and a rimfire pistol. Later, there will be others including several SBRs.

It'll be a while before I start, though. I have other priorities. When I do start, I'll do a trust with just two people on it and the hassle will be no big deal. I am accustomed to working with bureaucracies and voluminous silly rules don't bother me.

 

[HKShooter65]

My trust was re-written to show only two people...everyone else is now on a separate appointment letter...so only two have to play the retarded fingerprint/picture/paperwork/LE notification game each time.
.

I absolutely plan to keep buying.

Tell us more about the "Separate appointment letter".

My sons are on my trust and I was considering the options:
1. Take them off the trust, which eventually makes it far harder to get the NFA items to them and ends their current ability to use and possess the items.
2. Leave that trust alone and buy NFA items personally as I did back when I could get CLEO signatures.
3. Create a second trust with just my name on it, though I don't know how that would be different than option #2.

Pics and prints are a nuisance, though by no means prohibitively so.
Nor am I surprised that ATF closed the loophole allowing me to, at well, add or remove trustee names. Don't like it but tough to argue. A couple of years ago there were some far worse options being proposed.

 

[Tejano Scott]

That will be my first purchase, period. At pretty much the same time, I need suppressors for a rimfire rifle and a rimfire pistol. Later, there will be others including several SBRs.

It'll be a while before I start, though. I have other priorities. When I do start, I'll do a trust with just two people on it and the hassle will be no big deal. I am accustomed to working with bureaucracies and voluminous silly rules don't bother me.

Am I the 2nd person? You're too nice Ben!

 

[Shady]

Will make it nice and easy for me to go back to an individual form over the trust.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I absolutely plan to keep buying.

Tell us more about the "Separate appointment letter".

My sons are on my trust and I was considering the options:
1. Take them off the trust, which eventually makes it far harder to get the NFA items to them and ends their current ability to use and possess the items.
2. Leave that trust alone and buy NFA items personally as I did back when I could get CLEO signatures.
3. Create a second trust with just my name on it, though I don't know how that would be different than option #2.

Pics and prints are a nuisance, though by no means prohibitively so.
Nor am I surprised that ATF closed the loophole allowing me to, at well, add or remove trustee names. Don't like it but tough to argue. A couple of years ago there were some far worse options being proposed.

I would also like to hear about this appointment letter as well Alex.

I've been told the ATF would only be concerned with whomever the trust lists as a responsible person (RP) on the date of Form 1/4 submission. So there is nothing that would preclude you from adding a trustee (such as your son) after you submit the paperwork.

 

[wakal]

Exactly.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Hypothetically speaking; actually, some random letters fell out of my keyboard and said:

If a trust is set up with the (very standard) provision to add and remove trustees, set that trust to only include the minimum possible number of trustees in the main body of the trust. Then, add additional trustees in the format specified by the trust (say, a notarized letter both appointing Clark Kent to the position of trustee and Clark accepting the position of trustee). The BATFE gets the main body of the trust and the fingerprints/pictures/forms/DNA samples/pint of blood/booger samples that Our Dear Leader and Overlord of Amerika has demanded...but only from those specified on the trust. Those on separate letters, not so much. It would keep, say, a dozen folks in three states from having to file paperwork every time one of those folks gets an extra few dollars and a hankerin' for a new toy.

The previous was not legal advice, and may or may not be legal to read in any or all jurisdictions.

 

[Southpaw]

With the LEO sign off gone I foresee a few purchases as an individual in the future.

 

[Charlie]

I've got a trust with the wife and I on it as trustees. What would be wrong with doing a new trust with only myself as settler and the only trustee on it? Wouldn't it simplify things?

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I may end up with 20 or so trusts when I'm done but I'm not ever submitting on my current trust. New one every two years then add everyone afterwards.

The ATF can FOAD.

 

[diesel1959]

My wife, myself, and one other gent are currently listed as "managing members" of our LLC. I've worked to get everything that needs transferred in to the LLC submitted in time to beat the 41F clock. If, later on, we feel the need to pick up something else, I can file an amendment online that drops the wife from managing membership and issue her a separate--private--letter that makes her an employee with certain successor rights (which employee rights and successor rights I shall not state here). Employees can't make management decisions and are NOT responsible persons under the ATF's rules, so she'll never be forced to be inconvenienced with having to be fingerprinted/photographed, etc. The other gent and myself, well, we're not happy with the added legal requirements; however, we'll muddle through if we need to buy more NFA goodies.

We've currently got ten (10) transfers submitted on Form 5 pending into the LLC and two e-Forms 1 filed for SBRs.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I've got a trust with the wife and I on it as trustees. What would be wrong with doing a new trust with only myself as settler and the only trustee on it? Wouldn't it simplify things?

Nothing. Then add your wife or whomever when the the item is approved. See Mexican Hippie's post. That's what I suspect a lot of folks will do. If the ATF wants to play stupid semantics games, the firearms community will usually figure out a work around.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I may end up with 20 or so trusts when I'm done but I'm not ever submitting on my current trust. New one every two years then add everyone afterwards.

The ATF can FOAD.

BINGO

 

[DallasJoe]

So I do have one question maybe someone here can confirm.

I have an NFA trust with my Wife and Son (beneficiary only) he is a minor (5yrs old). He would not be considered a responsible party because he is a minor correct? He has no authority on the trust, just there in case we pass away prematurely.

 

[Mike_from_Texas]

For me it depends.
I'm still a little unclear on the actual requirements. My wife and I are trustees on our trust. So I know for the next submission we need prints and photos for each of us. After that are the prints on file good for up to 2 years or do we have to sum it prints for each subsequent submission? Also it's my understanding that passport photos are supposed to be taken within the last 12 months of submission. Is this correct or are they also good for 2 years?

 

[Tejano Scott]

So I do have one question maybe someone here can confirm.

I have an NFA trust with my Wife and Son (beneficiary only) he is a minor (5yrs old). He would not be considered a responsible party because he is a minor correct? He has no authority on the trust, just there in case we pass away prematurely.

I don't believe beneficiaries are considered responsible persons. Settlors and trustees, who have current right to possess said items, would be considered RPs.


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[Tejano Scott]

For me it depends.
I'm still a little unclear on the actual requirements. My wife and I are trustees on our trust. So I know for the next submission we need prints and photos for each of us. After that are the prints on file good for up to 2 years or do we have to sum it prints for each subsequent submission? Also it's my understanding that passport photos are supposed to be taken within the last 12 months of submission. Is this correct or are they also good for 2 years?

Not sure on how long the passport photo will be good for. I was under the impression that photo and prints are good for 2 years. But there's been a lot of confusion and misinformation, and that's at the ATF level as well.


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[Tejano Scott]

Any one else having problems using eForms tonight?


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[Pachucko]

Any one else having problems using eForms tonight?


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Yes, got everything to work but can't attach docs.

I did a F1 this morning in 10 minutes though.