Buying land for private range use: any suggestions?

[Charlie]

When one states, "The State only requires a landowner have 10 acres of land (or to be able to be aggregated with adjacent neighbors to make up at least 10 acres), in order to be able to discharge weapons on the property." That is untrue or at best misleading. I can own 1 acre or 5 or 10 acres and still legally discharge a firearm in Kerr county or Kerrville city limits and am breaking no laws.

 

[diesel1959]

When one states, "The State only requires a landowner have 10 acres of land (or to be able to be aggregated with adjacent neighbors to make up at least 10 acres), in order to be able to discharge weapons on the property." That is untrue or at best misleading. I can own 1 acre or 5 or 10 acres and still legally discharge a firearm in Kerr county or Kerrville city limits and am breaking no laws.

As a law enforement officer who makes the scene on a "discharge of firearms" call out in the unincorporated portion of the county, all I'm concerned with (after all safety concerns have been allayed) is whether the owner has at least 10 acres. If not, whether he and his neighbor's land--taken together--adds up to at least 10 acres and the neighbor likewise consents to the firearms discharge. If so, I head back in service as there's "nothing to see, folks. Move along--show's over." The aggregation aspect is a portion of "polite" policing that a vast majority of understanding county law enforcement officers use to keep good folks out of any trouble. And again, I don't personally know of any Texas Counties that haven't taken advantage of their authority under 235.022.

IF Kerr County is such a County, then by having only 1 acre or 5 acres and, having neighbors who wouldn't consent, you stand in peril of the Commissioner's Court passing a rule that regulates up to the 10 acre limit found in 235.022. Then where would you be, with the stroke of a single pen following the votes of four commissioners and one county judge.

 

[Charlie]

As a law enforement officer who makes the scene on a "discharge of firearms" call out in the unincorporated portion of the county, all I'm concerned with (after all safety concerns have been allayed) is whether the owner has at least 10 acres. If not, whether he and his neighbor's land adds up to at least 10 acres and he likewise consents to the firearms discharge. If so, I head back in service as there's "nothing to see, folks. Move along--show's over."

Then you are doing it wrong, unless your county (or city) has an ordinance against it. It is not a state law unless your county or city has an ordinance against it. If so, then there is a violation. If they don't, there is no violation. That said, most cities,and some counties have ordinances regarding discharging a firearm based on city limits or county regulations regarding a certain amount of acreage. But, the state leaves that up to the particular county or city. It is not a state law.

 

[Charlie]

If it against "your" county's laws or "your" city's laws, yes it is a violation. The state leaves that up to the individual entities. But, the state does not prohibit the mere discharge of a firearm on less than 10 acres. Reread the statute.

 

[Charlie]

We had a case here (within the city limits) involving someone shooting on their property (5 acres) within the last 3 years that a neighbor brought to the attention of law enforcement with a concern. It was established that the neighbor was not shooting off his property (he killed a deer, in season) or endangering anyone. It was taken to commissioner's court and city council and determined there were no city laws or county laws broken and therefore no violation.

 

[diesel1959]

Then you are doing it wrong, unless your county (or city) has an ordinance against it. It is not a state law unless your county or city has an ordinance against it. If so, then there is a violation. If they don't, there is no violation. That said, most cities,and some counties have ordinances regarding discharging a firearm based on city limits or county regulations regarding a certain amount of acreage. But, the state leaves that up to the particular county or city. It is not a state law.

Both counties I've worked in do. And I've NOT been doing it wrong, thank you very much.

 

[diesel1959]

If it against "your" county's laws or "your" city's laws, yes it is a violation. The state leaves that up to the individual entities. But, the state does not prohibit the mere discharge of a firearm on less than 10 acres. Reread the statute.

Au contraire--what the STATE LAW says is that it prohibits any County from prohibiting the discharge of firearms in the unincorporated portions of the County so long as the land owner controls greater than 10 acres. It's a principle of preemption. The State only permits the County to take a "bite" of a certain size, and that size is 10 acres or less . . . or not at all.

 

[Charlie]

Both counties I've worked in do. And I've NOT been doing it wrong, thank you very much.

If your counties have ordinances against it, then you are correct. You are not doing it wrong. What I'm saying is the state does not disallow you to shoot on ten acres.

 

[diesel1959]

We had a case here (within the city limits) involving someone shooting on their property (5 acres) within the last 3 years that a neighbor brought to the attention of law enforcement with a concern. It was established that the neighbor was not shooting off his property (he killed a deer, in season) or endangering anyone. It was taken to commissioner's court and city council and determined there were no city laws or county laws broken and therefore no violation.

I've never worked in Kerrville or Kerr County. I can't speak to what happens or has happened there.

 

[diesel1959]

If your counties have ordinances against it, then you are correct. You are not doing it wrong. What I'm saying is the state does not disallow you to shoot on ten acres.

You're not going to go very far in law school until you first learn how to read and understand the twisty turns contained within laws and understand the principles of preemption. I don't claim to be an expert, but there is a piece of paper in my home that has the signature of several former Texas Supreme Court Justices that says that I'm an attorney and counselor at law. For whatever that's worth.

 

[diesel1959]

If your counties have ordinances against it, then you are correct. You are not doing it wrong. What I'm saying is the state does not disallow you to shoot on ten acres.

What the state does is disallow the county from disallowing you from shooting so long as you've got more than ten acres. It's sort of like protection provided by the state against the possible over-reach of local county government. What can be bad about the state trying to reign is runaway county governments?

 

[Charlie]

You're not going to go very far in law school until you first learn how to read and understand the twisty turns contained within laws and understand the principles of preemption. I don't claim to be an expert, but there is a piece of paper in my home that has the signature of several former Texas Supreme Court Justices that says that I'm an attorney and counselor at law. For whatever that's worth.

I'm not going to be rude. But I don't care what piece of paper you have. Show me a state statute that says no individual may discharge a firearm legally on less than ten acres anywhere in Texas. I agree that a state statue can allow a county or city to ban shooting on certain amount of acreages, but it's up to the county or city. There is no blanket state law that says no individual may legally discharge a firearm anywhere in the state of Texas on less than 10 acres.

 

[diesel1959]

blah blah blah but you can't make them drink. And I'm not trying to be rude either. G'nite.

 

[Charlie]

Well, up to now, I've tried to be civil. But, if you're an attorney, you must be right , 'cause you said it. In every case in court there are two lawyers, one ends up wrong and one ends up right, ask the judge. Good night to you sir.

 

[Mreed911]

As a law enforement officer who makes the scene on a "discharge of firearms" call out in the unincorporated portion of the county, all I'm concerned with (after all safety concerns have been allayed) is whether the owner has at least 10 acres... don't personally know of any Texas Counties that haven't taken advantage of their authority under 235.022.

Hays.

IF Kerr County is such a County, then by having only 1 acre or 5 acres and, having neighbors who wouldn't consent, you stand in peril of the Commissioner's Court passing a rule that regulates up to the 10 acre limit found in 235.022. Then where would you be, with the stroke of a single pen following the votes of four commissioners and one county judge.

Then, and only then, would it be illegal.

As Charlie says, it is NOT a State Law that you have 10 acres to shoot. If a county passes an ordinance banning it AND you have less than 10 acres, it's a violation of a County Ordinance, nothing more.

 

[diesel1959]

If I had a client--say the OP, for instance--and he was asking about what to do in setting up a private range in the unincorporated portion of a county in Texas, I'd advise him to do just what I said--have more than 10 acres and then you're good to go. Specifically BECAUSE of a State law that shields him if he does so. It prevents a County from coming along and regulating him out of his purpose. The only thing that would stop him would be if his property gets swallowed up by annexation by a municipality.

And as for Hays County, I've never worked in that county either, so I've never bothered to become familiar with their rules.

 

[Mreed911]

Well, at least now you personally know a county that hasn't promulgated such regulations.

 

[diesel1959]

Well, at least now you personally know a county that hasn't promulgated such regulations.

Well, that's a blessing, and I thank you kindly.

 

[busykngt]

The only thing that would stop him would be if his property gets swallowed up by annexation by a municipality.

And not even then unless he owns 50 acres - which is why I advocated a close reading of the link that karlac posted. IF the OP wants to be protected against future growth in his immediate locale. I've always considered 50 acres to be the best long term insurance possible to have against the government...right up to the point where they'd change the law! (But hopefully, you'd be grandfathered in).
Of course that may still not be enough to keep neighbors from legally hassling you with nuisance lawsuits regarding noise complaints, etc., etc.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

And not even then unless he owns 50 acres - which is why I advocated a close reading of the link that karlac posted. IF the OP wants to be protected against future growth in his immediate locale. I've always considered 50 acres to be the best long term insurance possible to have against the government...right up to the point where they'd change the law! (But hopefully, you'd be grandfathered in).
Of course that may still not be enough to keep neighbors from legally hassling you with nuisance lawsuits regarding noise complaints, etc., etc.

And that is where suppressors come in handy, lol.