C93 v ar15

[texas_teacher]

I'm looking at a rifle for CQ protection around the house and lake property as well as having some fun at the range. Looking at both of these as options. Just wondering if anybody had both and had a preference. I like the enlarged mp5 style of the C93, but there is also the classic look and feel of the AR15. Eventually I will have both just a matter of which one I'll have for a few more years than the other.

 

[smittyb]

Curious about the C93 as well.
It uses the roller locking system of the HK91/Cetme, which I have andlove, just curious as to how CAI has got it to function with the 223.

 

[M. Sage]

AR hands down. Superior ergonomics (worlds better). More options for configuring it to your personal preference. Easier to mount optics, change sights, etc. Lighter, and should be able to get one shorter. Mags will be easier and cheaper to find, the operating system isn't goofy (roller-delayed blowback... really!?), the receiver isn't stamped sheet metal. Oddly the sheet metal receiver doesn't bug me on an AK, but the AK has a reputation for being cheap and crappy, while H&K has this fanboy thing going on where people treat them like they're made by magic kraut-eating gnomes or something... It's just another rifle, folks, and not a terribly good one at that.

The C93 isn't a scaled-up MP5, it's a copy of a scaled-down G3. Sort of. It's actually the civilian/"sporting" version of the G33, which is a scaled-back G3 in 5.56. The MP5 is also a scaled-down G3 (Germans aren't real good at this whole "creativity" thing - they didn't even design the G3 themselves), but I digress... For what it's worth, the C93 is from Century Arms, whose reputation isn't too solid.

When they made the "sporting" versions of their military rifles, H&K deleted the magazine "flipper" release, leaving only the button release that you can't really reach without some fairly extreme movement of your firing hand. Why they put two magazine releases on their rifles nobody really knows... But the flipper was the one that was more convenient to use, as you could grip the magazine with your support hand, push the release and strip the magazine in one smooth motion.

The AR just has everything going over the H&K rifles. Accuracy, function, ease of cleaning (though the H&K is pretty damn easy, just don't collapse the bolt while it's out! And stripping an H&K bolt requires brute force), accessories, size and weight. For same length barrels, an AR will run around 4" or more shorter than the H&K rifle. That's what you get with a blowback system in a centerfire rifle....

Of course, if you get the AR, you won't get to do that cool "H&K slap" when you load the rifle. Then again, the stupid little plastic knob on the H&K cocking handle eventually breaks and flies off into space from doing that, which ruins the cool factor.

The G33 was never adopted by any military as far as I know, though it did see some police use. The AR? Weapon of choice for most special forces teams in the Western world, even in countries that don't otherwise field them.

One last thing. Do you reload? If you do, the fluted chambers on the HK style rifle tears brass up pretty bad.

IMO, the old blowback H&K rifles are pretty much equivalent to the AK. Cheap to build, simple to use. Just totally over-engineered, which is typical of Germans.

 

[smittyb]

I see it like this. I have a Cetme, AR, and AK.
The AR is super Tacti-cool. You can put all sorts of lights lasers grips sights optics stocks slings etc etc on it and pretend you are Rambo. Don't get me wrong, for some people theese are valuable equipment, for the average folk like me, they are range novelties. It is super light-weight,fun to shoot, just keep it clean. It will cost you around 700 bucks to get into one at an entry level, then all that other tacti-cool stuff is extra from there.
The Cetme/G3/AK/C93 are all alike. I don't want optics on them, they are reliable as hell, just grab it and send the lead downrange.
My Cetme is superbly battle rifle accurate with open sights. The AK's not so much, but can be ok. It will only cost you around 400 bucks to get into one, and all you need is ammo from there.

I say everyone should have one of each.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Everyone has an AR. Consider that. My friend just bought 2 century .223's. He loves them. They are built (at least his are) with HK33 parts kits.

If you ever want to own a full auto rifle, all you need is a trigger pack and sear. Then you can use it in any HK or HK style roller type weapon.

I have 3 HK rifles and 3 pistols. I love them, but that is just me. They are just as easy to take apart as a AR. Mine does not tear up brass either. The polygonal barrel make it more accurate and the rifling marks come right out when you resize your brass.

 

[SC-Texas]

I believe the G3 was designed by Germans.

 

[SC-Texas]

Everyone has an AR. Consider that.

Yes and there is a reason.
Easy to wrk on at home.
Parts available everywhere.
Cheap uber reliable magazines.
Great ergonomics compared to the HK93-33 rifles.

If you ever want to own a full auto rifle, all you need is a trigger pack and sear. Then you can use it in any HK or HK style roller type weapon.

A RDIAS can make any AR-15 into a Machinegun and all you have to do is change uppers to change calibers. I am talking about going from .22 to 9mm, to 5.56 to 6.8, 6.5 and up to .458 SOCOM

I have 3 HK rifles and 3 pistols. I love them, but that is just me. They are just as easy to take apart as a AR. Mine does not tear up brass either. The flutes make it more accurate and come right out when you resize your brass.

Most Hk rifles destroy brass.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Yes and there is a reason.
Easy to wrk on at home.
Parts available everywhere.
Cheap uber reliable magazines.
Great ergonomics compared to the HK93-33 rifles.



A RDIAS can make any AR-15 into a Machinegun and all you have to do is change uppers to change calibers. I am talking about going from .22 to 9mm, to 5.56 to 6.8, 6.5 and up to .458 SOCOM



Most Hk rifles destroy brass.

Actually the G3 was based on the Spanish CETME rifle.

To each their own. My HK's are just as easy to work on, as an AR
I can find parts (never needed any) pretty easy too.
You got me on the mags. The 33 mags are pricey. Now the G3 mags are cheaper then AR mags.
I like the ergonomics of the HK style weapon.

Well,....yes, you can go with a RIDAS, but you will need to modify or get a new lower and bolt. With the HK sear/trigger pack you can go from .22 (conversion kit) to MP5-k to MP5, to MP5 10mm., to 33, to G3, to belt-fed 21 and belt-fed 23.

MY HK's don't destroy the brass.

The HK style weapon is used all around the world, just like the AK and M16.

I am not trying to argue which is better and I am not gonna start now. Again, to each their own. I like my HK's ! They are every bit as good as an AR-15. Maybe every store on the planet doesn't have loads of crap to bolt on my HK's, but my HK's are every bit as accurate as any off the shelf AR-15.

 

[M. Sage]

The flutes in the chamber aren't for accuracy sake. They're for fouling control, something you really need in a blowback rifle (think about how fast your .22 fouls up).

For the record, the AR platform can do airgun, crossbow, .22 all the way up to .50 BMG (single-shot)

 

[tussery]

The only problem I have with HK rifles (not Century of Vector) is I could build two nice AR's for the price I see a real HK go for.

 

[Joat]

...and up to .458 SOCOM

Where's the love for the 50 Beowulf?
Admittedly with a standard p-mag I only have 7 shots, but even with my light loads that's over a quarter of a pound of lead going down range per mag dump.

Joat

 

[randmplumbingllc]

The flutes in the chamber aren't for accuracy sake. They're for fouling control, something you really need in a blowback rifle (think about how fast your .22 fouls up).

For the record, the AR platform can do airgun, crossbow, .22 all the way up to .50 BMG (single-shot)

Okay ? All I was talking about, is the ease of using a Century .223 into a full auto. It seems that most here are thinking that I am knocking the AR. I AM NOT ! I have owned several and still have one.

What is being discussed is a "polygonal" barrel. Read on.....

Advantages

Hexagonal polygonal rifling.


A number of advantages are claimed by the supporters of polygonal rifling. These include:

• Not compromising the barrel's thickness in the area of each groove as with traditional rifling.
• Providing a better gas seal around the projectile as polygonal bores tend to have a slightly smaller bore area, which translates into more efficient use of the combustion gases trapped behind the bullet,[3] slightly greater (consistency in) muzzle velocities and slightly increased accuracy.[4]
• Less bullet deformation, resulting in reduced drag on the bullet when traveling through the barrel which helps to increase muzzle velocity.
• Reduced buildup of copper or lead within the barrel which results in easier maintenance characteristics.
• Prolonged barrel life.

However, precision target pistols such as those used in Bullseye and IHMSA almost universally use traditional rifling, as do target rifles. The debate among target shooters is almost always one of cut vs. button rifled barrels, as traditional rifling is dominant. Polygonal rifled barrels are used competitively in pistol action shooting, such as IDPA and IPSC competitions.
Part of the difference may be that most polygonal rifling is produced by hammer forging the barrel around a mandrel containing a reverse impression of the rifling. Hammer forging machines are tremendously expensive, far out of the reach of custom gunsmiths (unless they buy pre-rifled blanks), and so are generally only used for production barrels by large companies. The main advantage of a hammer forging process is that it can rifle, chamber, and contour a bored barrel blank in one step. First applied to gun barrel rifling in Germany in 1939, hammer forging has remained popular in Europe, but was only later used by gunmakers in the United States. The hammer forging process produces large amounts of stress in the barrel that must be relieved by careful heat treatment, a process that is less necessary in a traditionally cut or button rifled barrel. Due to the potential for residual stress causing accuracy problems, precision shooters tend to avoid hammer forged barrels, and this limits them in the type of available rifling. From a practical standpoint, any accuracy issues resulting from the residual stresses of hammer forging are extremely unlikely to be an issue in a defense or service pistol, or a typical hunting rifle.

 

[M. Sage]

The barrels on the C93 rifles are probably US-made. 1: They're 16", when the HK93 has an 18" barrel and the G33 was typically a 19" barrel. 2: 3 years ago or so the BATFE decided that they could ban the import of barrels of firearms that are illegal to import complete under 922(r). Why? There was a huge influx of cheap AK kits at the time, and we can't have people circumventing the ban even if they are staying well within the bounds of the law when they're doing it.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

The barrels on the C93 rifles are probably US-made. 1: They're 16", when the HK93 has an 18" barrel and the G33 was typically a 19" barrel. 2: 3 years ago or so the BATFE decided that they could ban the import of barrels of firearms that are illegal to import complete under 922(r). Why? There was a huge influx of cheap AK kits at the time, and we can't have people circumventing the ban even if they are staying well within the bounds of the law when they're doing it.

These are the facts:

The C93 barrel IS American made.

The C93 barrel is 16.25"

The HK93 barrel is 16.125" without flash suppressor

The HK33 barrel is 15.4" in A2

 

[matefrio]

What's the twist rate?

 

[randmplumbingllc]

what's the twist rate?

c93 ? 1:9

 

[M. Sage]

According to HKpro.com, both the HK93 and G33 ran a 19" barrel (rounded). I misread the decimal on one and thought it was 18".

 

[SC-Texas]

Actually the G3 was based on the Spanish CETME rifle.

Who designed the CETME?

German engineers who left Germany, taking German technology and knowhow with them, went to SPAIN and designed the CETME there becasue Postwar Germany was not allowed small arms.

Therefore, the CETME was designed by German firearms engineers who took German designs out of Germany to SPAIN and then brought them back to Germany afterward.

Not trying to Argue, but its important to understand the tral lineage of the weapons we are discussing.

 

[Texas1911]

Heckler, Koch, and Seidel were engineers at the Mauser Oberndorf Waffenfabrik, and after the war they did alot of bouncing around until H&K was founded.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Who designed the CETME?

German engineers who left Germany, taking German technology and knowhow with them, went to SPAIN and designed the CETME there becasue Postwar Germany was not allowed small arms.

Therefore, the CETME was designed by German firearms engineers who took German designs out of Germany to SPAIN and then brought them back to Germany afterward.

Not trying to Argue, but its important to understand the tral lineage of the weapons we are discussing.

I do understand. Google is my friend !

This......CETME - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia