Chauvin guilty on all counts

[striker55]

Sad fact of life, this was never about Chauvin personally and could have been anyone. It was a media circus, and a guilty verdict was decided months ago before the trial ever started. The prosecution, the media and everyone involved knew this was high profile trial with serious implications, and knew that a wrong verdict could set off a powderkeg.

This trial was never about finding the truth, which is what any, and every trial is suppose to be about and finding justice. Chauvin was tried in the media months ago, by the court of public opinion. I seriously doubt every jury member went into that trial as an impartial viewer of the facts and evidence of that case. I suspect, regardless of what they really said, that some probably already had their minds made up, that Chauvin, was guilty of murder, or at the very least, had to be the sacrificial lamb for the masses to quiet things down.

Even court tv lawyers had him convicted before the trial, I found their reporting was biased.

 

[Texas45]

Nothing at all to do with justice
Everything to do with appeasing those who feel wronged by others.


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[Frank59]

Murder 1st: (a) Murder perpetrated by means of poison, lying in wait, or any other willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing. (Source.)

I already have explained why I believe it premeditated. I think I how I believe it beyond a reasonable doubt should be easily deciphered from what I already wrote. So, now I've told you. What say you without emotion, without such implied challenges as to my veracity about my career as "You say you were in LE." and with you looking at it from a purely objective point of view.

View attachment 253302

LMAO.....Sorry Glenn....But that's a face only a mother could love

 

[Younggun]

For a chronic abuser, I would speculate that the Fentanyl dose might not have much effect on Floyd. Speculation only.

His GF had to take him to the ER a few months before for OD from casual use. In this case, he ate a bag of pills trying to hide evidence.

I don’t think anyone is going to build up that kind of resistance. It’d be like an alcoholic being sober with a .3 BAC.


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[bbbass]

His GF had to take him to the ER a few months before for OD from casual use. In this case, he ate a bag of pills trying to hide evidence.

I don’t think anyone is going to build up that kind of resistance. It’d be like an alcoholic being sober with a .3 BAC.


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My understanding is that Fentanyl effects are unpredictable. The tipping point of suppression of breathing depends on too many things to say that any particular level for any particular person at any particular time will be lethal. But ME's do know that it has been TYPICALLY lethal at certain dosage. That's good evidence. Also that exposure to Fentanyl is so risky that IIRC LE does everything they can to avoid even touching it.

 

[bbbass]

No, but I'll listen to what his superiors said, that he use improper techniques, and if his lack of judgment resulted in the death, then he is at least guilty of manslaughter.

IIRC, this method of restraint was SOP for that dept response to fentanyl excited delirium. That means his superiors, including the chief, threw Chauvin under the bus.

I think you posted those numbers before in this thread, and I think you mentioned that this restraint method is/was approved by that police department. I would say this, just because it has been used before, and no one died as result, doesn't in itself make it a safe means of restraining a person. In Chauvin's case, as we now know Floyd was on Fentynal, and at almost four times the lethal amount to kill a person. So Floyd's death could be a combination of factors that contributed to his own death.

With all that said, none of that IMO points to Chauvin being guilty of any murder charges. At the very, very least, again IMO, negligent homicide. IF Floyd's death was a result of the restraint method used, and it was their approved departmental method, then that police department is responsible for Floyd's death, not Chauvin.

I would also add, maybe that police department, and any other LE agency using that particular restraint method, might need to re-think that, or study training and use of that restraint so this doesn't happen again.

IIRC, when this first happened I looked up that restraint and discovered that most depts that used/approved it had stopped doing so because of the risks associated with it. Same for choke holds. But wasn't it the Israeli forces that taught the U.S. LE this technique? I thought I read that somewhere, but I'm not sure.

Honestly, I can't see how they got any murder charge to stick. Murder requires pre-meditation, at some point to kill another person.

Minn has both "intentional" and "unintentional" murder defined within their 2nd degree murder statute. However, you can see that the "unintentional" is very narrowly defined so as to separate it from manslaughter....

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings.
Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.
Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

IMO, glennb makes a good argument for thinking that Chauvin intended for Floyd to die, but the counter-argument that dept policy was to wait for EMS to arrive is also strong. Point is: we don't know what Chauvin was thinking because he didn't say, and I don't know what that dept policy is regarding waiting for EMS. So I remain skeptical, unconvinced and in reasonable doubt.

(ETA: disclaimer, I didn't watch ALL the trial so there may be some holes in my knowledge.)

 

[Younggun]

My understanding is that Fentanyl effects are unpredictable. The tipping point of suppression of breathing depends on too many things to say that any particular level for any particular person at any particular time will be lethal. But ME's do know that it has been TYPICALLY lethal at certain dosage. That's good evidence. Also that exposure to Fentanyl is so risky that IIRC LE does everything they can to avoid even touching it.

Lethal doses tend to be based on LD-50, or at what does would it likely kill 50% of the people exposed. At least in my line of work dealing with hazmat.

I can’t imagine that something that kills 50% of people at 3.1mg (iirc) wouldn’t definitely kill anyone exposed with a level of 11+mg. I could see building some resistance maybe, and tolerating 4mg...not knowing just how much resistance our bodies can form to something like fentanyl.


According to this as little as .25mg can be fatal.

Fentanyl vs. Heroin: An Opioid Comparison

Heroin and fentanyl are both opioid drugs that bind to opioid receptors in the brain, reducing pain sensations and elevating pleasure and relaxation.

americanaddictioncenters.org

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[Younggun]

IIRC, this method of restraint was SOP for that dept response to fentanyl excited delirium. That means his superiors, including the chief, threw Chauvin under the bus.




IIRC, when this first happened I looked up that restraint and discovered that most depts that used/approved it had stopped doing so because of the risks associated with it. Same for choke holds. But wasn't it the Israeli forces that taught the U.S. LE this technique? I thought I read that somewhere, but I'm not sure.




Minn has both "intentional" and "unintentional" murder defined within their 2nd degree murder statute. However, you can see that the "unintentional" is very narrowly defined so as to separate it from manslaughter....

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19



IMO, glennb makes a good argument for thinking that Chauvin intended for Floyd to die, but the counter-argument that dept policy was to wait for EMS to arrive is also strong. Point is: we don't know what Chauvin was thinking because he didn't say, and I don't know what that dept policy is regarding waiting for EMS. So I remain skeptical, unconvinced and in reasonable doubt.

(ETA: disclaimer, I didn't watch ALL the trial so there may be some holes in my knowledge.)

And this is where reasonable doubt comes in to play. And why I have major issues accepting this verdict. I don’t feel that the states proved their case behind a reasonable doubt. Instead it was “look, look at this emotional cell phone video. Forget all other relevant information, forget the extenuating circumstances, and just look at this video! Did you hear him call mamma? Isn’t that sad? Did George Floyd deserve to die???”

So many things in this case were conflated to issues of non relevance that I don’t understand how anyone who really believes in justice can support the outcome.


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[cycleguy2300]

Lethal doses tend to be based on LD-50, or at what does would it likely kill 50% of the people exposed. At least in my line of work dealing with hazmat.

I can’t imagine that something that kills 50% of people at 3.1mg (iirc) wouldn’t definitely kill anyone exposed with a level of 11+mg. I could see building some resistance maybe, and tolerating 4mg...not knowing just how much resistance our bodies can form to something like fentanyl.


According to this as little as .25mg can be fatal.

Fentanyl vs. Heroin: An Opioid Comparison

Heroin and fentanyl are both opioid drugs that bind to opioid receptors in the brain, reducing pain sensations and elevating pleasure and relaxation.

americanaddictioncenters.org

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.2mg
Point two milligrams, about the same weight as 2 or 3 granules of table salt. The stuff is potent.

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[Rhino]

So many things in this case were conflated to issues of non relevance that I don’t understand how anyone who really believes in justice can support the outcome.

See, I believe someone CAN reasonably support the manslaughter charge... and saying that someone who believe in justice can't support that is problematic.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

And the rioting will continue anyway...

 

[Vaquero]

And the rioting will continue anyway...

Can't argue with that.

 

[cycleguy2300]

See, I believe someone CAN reasonably support the manslaughter charge... and saying that someone who believe in justice can't support that is problematic.

I find it problematic for anyone to attempt to deny it is reasonable to doubt Chauvin's actions were what killed Floyd when Floyd had 4x the lethal dose of a drug in his system.

Are you not troubled the ME's report was not allowed to be mentioned, referenced or shown to jurors?

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[Rhino]

I find it problematic for anyone to attempt to deny it is reasonable to doubt Chauvin's actions were what killed Floyd when Floyd had 4x the lethal dose of a drug in his system.

Are you not troubled the ME's report was not allowed to be mentioned, referenced or shown to jurors?

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So, if I have a cyanide pill in my mouth it's ok for you to shoot me?
It's still murder even if I have suicidal intentions if YOU pull the trigger.
You're getting weirder.

 

[cycleguy2300]

So, if I have a cyanide pill in my mouth it's ok for you to shoot me?
It's still murder even if I have suicidal intentions if YOU pull the trigger.
You're getting weirder.

Dude, your logic is wacko.

If you ingest a lethal dose of cyanide and someone uses a taser seconds after to lawfully and within policy arrest you, but you die you cannot truly believe it reasonable to blame the taser or the user of the taser.

The facts are:
Floyd OD'd on 4x the lethal dose of fentanyl (the cyanide in our story)

Chauvin used force within law, policy and his training (the taser for those following along)

Floyd died (I hope yall knew this already)

The bottom line is the application of lawful force cannot be a crime, any crime even if the person died. Think about a baton strike to the thigh that fractured a femur that in turn severed an artery causing the person to bleed out internally and die isnt criminal if the baton strike was lawful and within policy. Or if an officer lawfully applies force to shove a person back, but the person stumbles and strikes their head and dies. The force was intentional, the officer could scream "fucking die bitch" when they apply the shove, but if the force was lawful and withing policy, it isn't a crime. Not providing life saving care in the any of the situations, including Floyd's isn't criminal, it is civil and could open him up to civil liability, but again, it isn't a crime to not provide care.

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[Younggun]

See, I believe someone CAN reasonably support the manslaughter charge... and saying that someone who believe in justice can't support that is problematic.

He was found guilty of murder. Murder and manslaughter don’t coexist. You seem to only care about bits and pieces of this case, and ignore everything wrong with it.


I’ve already commented several times on manslaughter. Seems those comments are also not something you choose to acknowledge.


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[Younggun]

So, if I have a cyanide pill in my mouth it's ok for you to shoot me?
It's still murder even if I have suicidal intentions if YOU pull the trigger.
You're getting weirder.

If you’ve ingested cyanide and are now being combative and resisting arrest after committing a crime is it lawful to restrain you?


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[Axxe55]

Dude, your logic is wacko.

If you ingest a lethal dose of cyanide and someone uses a taser seconds after to lawfully and within policy arrest you, but you die you cannot truly believe it reasonable to blame the taser or the user of the taser.

The facts are:
Floyd OD'd on 4x th lethal dose of fentanyl (the cyanide in our story)

Chauvin used force within law, policy and his training (the taser for those following along)

Floyd died (I hope yall knew this already)

The bottom line is the application of lawful force cannot be a crime, any crime even if the person died. Think about a baton strike to the thigh that fractured a femur that in turn severed an artery causing the person to bleed out internally and die isnt criminal if the baton strike was lawful and within policy. Or if an officer lawfully applies force to shove a person back, but the person stumbles and strikes their head and dies. The force was intentional, the officer could scream "fucking die bitch" when they apply the shove, but if the force was lawful and withing policy, it isn't a crime. Not providing life saving care in the any of the situations, including Floyd's isn't criminal, it is civil and could open him up to civil liability, but again, it isn't a crime to not provide care.

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^^^This explains it right here.^^^

Why did Floyd ingest almost four times the amount of drugs that would, or could be a lethal dose for most people? I think someone mentioned he might have been trying to hide evidence of holding illegal drugs. I find that very possible.

Another question. Did Chauvin, or any other officers on the scene know that Floyd ingested those drugs?

Floyd ingested the drugs. They were not shoved down his throat. Floyd is as much responsible for his own death as is Chauvin. I can see Chauvin being partly responsible for Floyd's death, even if acting in accordance to department policy and procedures, but that doesn't come anywhere near being murder.

I'm sorry, but Chauvin is getting all the blame for Floyd's death. No one is holding Floyd accountable for his own actions that brought him into contact with the officers in the first place. He passed a fake $20 bill. Cops were called. Were they just suppose to ignore the complaint and leave Floyd to go about his business?

 

[Younggun]

^^^This explains it right here.^^^

Why did Floyd ingest almost four times the amount of drugs that would, or could be a lethal dose for most people? I think someone mentioned he might have been trying to hide evidence of holding illegal drugs. I find that very possible.

Another question. Did Chauvin, or any other officers on the scene know that Floyd ingested those drugs?

Floyd ingested the drugs. They were not shoved down his throat. Floyd is as much responsible for his own death as is Chauvin. I can see Chauvin being partly responsible for Floyd's death, even if acting in accordance to department policy and procedures, but that doesn't come anywhere near being murder.

I'm sorry, but Chauvin is getting all the blame for Floyd's death. No one is holding Floyd accountable for his own actions that brought him into contact with the officers in the first place. He passed a fake $20 bill. Cops were called. Were they just suppose to ignore the complaint and leave Floyd to go about his business?

At one point audio from the body cam was given (with video) in which Floyd was on the ground and said either “I ain’t done no drugs” or “I ate a bunch of drugs”.

It’s one of those weird things where you can hear it either way, depending on which you are thinking about when he says it.


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[Rhino]

He was found guilty of murder. Murder and manslaughter don’t coexist. You seem to only care about bits and pieces of this case, and ignore everything wrong with it.

You seem ignorant of the Minnesota law.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

It doesn't look too hard to convince a jury of that... and the way the charges work, the charges can stack.

How can someone be convicted of both murder and manslaughter for a single killing? Aren't these two mutually exclusive?

Answer (1 of 5): What makes you think someone can be? It is very common to be charged with both so that if the murder charge doesn't stick the manslaughter charge might. If you are convicted on the murder charge, the manslaughter charge becomes moot.

www.quora.com