Different bullets, same powder loads?

[andrew678122]

This is the exact bad advice I was talking about. With some powders such as H110/W296 a reduced load of 10% can cause catastrophic results. Again, when your gun blows up its going to make that $50 book look like a bargin.

That is not bad advice. Some published information is starting loads and maximum loads. Some published information is just maximum loads. ALL sources that supply maximum loads only, tell the reader to start at 10% down and work up to maximum.

My gun blowing up is NEVER going to make an inadequate and incomplete manual look like a bargain, but if I was reloading from that inadequate manual and my gun blew up what then?

Both W296 and H110 are listed as pistol and shotgun powders in the Hodgdon Basic Reloading Manual. I at least, will not be loading my rifle with it.

I have read every word of what has been written, contrary to what others have done.

Some of Lee's (and others) reloading information makes NO DIFFERENTIATION between any bullets of comparable weight, all 150 grain jacketed bullets are loaded the same.

I'm reloading using the 2011 bullet from Speer, loaded for my .30-30, and my powder of choice is H4895. I already know where I'm going to start, 31.5 gr so I think I'm ok.

Sometimes I can't understand some people on the Internet, they seem to think that anonymity gives them the right to say and act any way they want. I asked a very simple question and receive a load of crap about it. But I guess that's what makes the Internet such a wonderful place, anyone can say anything, like the old-west, a shoot from the lip mentality.

 

[Texasjack]

This is from the Hodgdon site:

Cartridge: 30-30 Winchester Load Type: Rifle

Starting Loads

Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.)

Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.

C.O.L.

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

110 GR. SPR FP

IMR

IMR 4895

.308"

2.415"

33.8

2290

30,500 CUP

36.0C

2459

35,400 CUP

150 GR. SIE FN

IMR

IMR 4895

.308"

2.550"

31.5

2071

32,200 CUP

33.5

2213

34,300 CUP

160 GR. HDY FTX

IMR

IMR 4895

.308"

2.550"

28.2

1912

31,700 CUP

30.0

2065

36,900 CUP

170 GR. SIE FP

IMR

IMR 4895

.308"

2.550"

29.8

1938

30,500 CUP

31.7

2068

35,300 CUP

But if you're loading .30-30, you really should give thought to trying LEVER or Varget. They really perform well in that caliber.

 

[andrew678122]

Thanks for the info, but I've already seen it. The only Speer bullet listed is the first one, the 110 grain, which brings me back to the question I originally posted: can reloading data for a known bullet be used when reloading a comparable but unknown bullet? After consideration of posts by mikeofcontext, Vaquero and Texasjack I'm going to conclude that the answer is YES, though always go back to the starting load and work up.

The powder I choose is based primarly on what my dealer stocks. My choice to go with H4895 was pulled from hodgdon's Basic Reloading Data and a list of my dealer's inventory. I think the dealer also stocks Varget but I'm not sure about Lever, if they have Varget I will probably go with it.

If I had worked up some conclusive data that the H4895 was performing well, then I would stick with it, but it doesn't seem to be consistent (either that or it is consistent and performs the same on all loads!). I haven't been able to nail down a load and say 'this is the one'.

 

[ROGER4314]

Andrew, I just went over to my book shelf and counted. There are 14 reloading manuals! Six are very old but the rest have been recently upgraded. I will be happy to look up anything that you might wonder about but won't give out powder charge weights over the 'Net.

I'm just a curious guy. I get to wondering about something and I like to have reference books available to check things. I love to learn and my books are a worthwhile investment in my quest for knowledge. I also love the historical information that the manuals have for each cartridge.

Switching bullet styles won't cause any harm but it's not recommended that you interchange loading data for lead and jacketed bullets. The cartridge overall length may change if you substitute bullet styles, too. Of course, using one set of charge tables for a different bullet weight is a NO NO!

Switching loads is no problem for me as I NEVER load near maximum levels. I leave that to the hot shots who have a death wish.

Keep moving. You're heading in the right direction!

Flash

 

[andrew678122]

Hey Roger,

That's what I'll do, I'll end up collecting data like you do. I'll buy what I need to reload, and then collect used manuals as I come across a bargain. If you have a Speer's manual I wouldn't mind getting some info on the #2007 and #2011 as used in .30-30 reloads, but I'll understand if you're reluctant to do so. In any case the Speer manual is one on my list to buy, simply because they don't put reloading info online like almost everyone else does. The only Speer info online, covers bullets introduced since the latest version of the reloading manual (14th edition) was published, which was in 2007 I believe. That's a long time between updates. I think the Lee manual is up to something like version 51, I would think it would be the most current of all of them.

I wonder why they don't have a subscription service where they could send updates? Makes too much sense I guess.

I will be very careful on my reloads, I have no intention of trying to load hot rounds, I just want something accurate.

Have a good weekend...

 

[shortround]

I will not reload a standard caliber unless I can reference it in a published manual.

The "internet" is full of "garbage in - garbage out."

It is safe to substitute one bullet for another when they are of the same diameter, weigh the same, and are of similar design (jacketed or lead).

Hornady gives the same loads for up to three or four bullets in the proper category.

Best to start off at the minimum load for the projectile and work your way up.

I do that in ten round increments.

 

[ROGER4314]

The difference in bullets is mostly the ballistic coefficient which will change the exterior ballistics. It's not going to be a big deal for 30-30 as that cartridge is not a long range cartridge to begin with. The 30-30 is known as a short range brush buster hunting round. It's not bad but it's not designed to reach out especially with the round nose bullets.

Hey, respectfully I offer this.................. Earlier in the thread, you guys were kicking around powder data for 4895. There is an IMR (improved military rifle) 4895 and an H4895. They have similar burn rates but they are different powders and not interchangeable.

Andrew, I'll check out that data for the Speer manual but it's very late right now. I fell asleep in my chair and it's time to hit the rack. I'll catch ya later on that OK? I have all of the major manuals and I say that not to brag but to illustrate that information to a teacher is our stock in trade. I don't read novels but technical manuals and "how to" books are here in abundance. I also love history and travel so I have lots of those, too. A book is always money well spent in my view.

I'll come back for a visit tomorrow (no....later today...snicker).

RE: I will not reload a standard caliber unless I can reference it in a published manual.

I agree completely. The only data I've used that was not published in a manual was when my friend "KM", a Marine Corps match shooter gave me the Marine Corps loads for 30-06 and .308. One of those loads was actually over "MAX" and I declined to load it. I don't use Internet loads nor do I make the situation worse by posting load data on the 'Net myself.

Flash

 

[ROGER4314]

YAWN....Finally got some sleep!

The 2007 and 2011 bullets are found on pages 432 and 433 of the new edition (#14) Speer book. I can send a PM with the data but prefer not to post it in the open forum.

Please clarify for me....The 2007 bullets has data for IMR 4895. The 2011 bullet data has charge tables for H 4895 AND IMR 4895. I'm not clear which powder you actually use.

Incidentally, it's good to have a lot of data in a book but Speer spreads it out so there's actually some blank space on each page and for your bullet choices, they only have one bullet and data per page. That makes it a lot easier to read! The Lee manual, in contrast fills up most of the page with data and it's harder to read but it's still a great manual with lots of information.

Lemmie know.............

Flash

 

[andrew678122]

YAWN....Finally got some sleep!

The 2007 and 2011 bullets are found on pages 432 and 433 of the new edition (#14) Speer book. I can send a PM with the data but prefer not to post it in the open forum.

Please clarify for me....The 2007 bullets has data for IMR 4895. The 2011 bullet data has charge tables for H 4895 AND IMR 4895. I'm not clear which powder you actually use.

Incidentally, it's good to have a lot of data in a book but Speer spreads it out so there's actually some blank space on each page and for your bullet choices, they only have one bullet and data per page. That makes it a lot easier to read! The Lee manual, in contrast fills up most of the page with data and it's harder to read but it's still a great manual with lots of information.

Lemmie know.............

Flash

Hey Roger,

I haven't started any reloads using the #2007 bullet, but plan to do so in the next month or so. I'm currently reloading using the #2011 bullet. I have both IMR4895 and H4895 powders on hand, so I can do either bullet. That said, I probably should bite the bullet (lol) and buy the Speer manual (and a Lee and a Lyman 30 cal load manual), but I'm not going to be able to do that until October.

I tend to be a nut for data too and try to accumulate everything I can get my hands on. The only problem then is getting too much data. I have seen conflicting data from different sources, usually not big differences but differences all the same. I guess when confronted with data that doesn't agree, go with the latest.

I agree with you not wanting to put load data on the Internet. There is already way too much out of date info on the Internet, and not just reloading data.

Out of curiosity, what do you teach?

Andrew

 

[ROGER4314]

Out of curiosity, what do you teach?

That's not easily answered. Sorry, this will sound like a resume'

I taught hydraulics, pneumatics, mechanics, controls/instrumentation, electrical, auto mechanics and drafting/design/CAD. I taught at the vocational, college, University levels, in the Texas Prison System and in a high school (that was the worst).

After I quit teaching, I went back to industry to work in Maintenance keeping computerized/automated robotic production equipment running and was a high pressure test equipment calibration tech.

I was considered pretty knowledgeable about technology once upon a time. Now I'm old and no one listens to me. That's ironic............snicker!
Aw Hell, I don't care. Now, I just play with guns, ride my Harley and play with my dog, Jake. Life is simple and good.

The Speer book is a good one and well worth the money. If you'd like me to check anything else in the other manuals, I'll be happy to help.

Flash

 

[andrew678122]

Out of curiosity, what do you teach?

That's not easily answered. Sorry, this will sound like a resume'

I taught hydraulics, pneumatics, mechanics, controls/instrumentation, electrical, auto mechanics and drafting/design/CAD. I taught at the vocational, college, University levels, in the Texas Prison System and in a high school (that was the worst).

After I quit teaching, I went back to industry to work in Maintenance keeping computerized/automated robotic production equipment running and was a high pressure test equipment calibration tech.

Sounds like fun! I'm into technical things, I'm retired but I was an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic and then an FAA authorised aircraft inspector for many years.

I was considered pretty knowledgeable about technology once upon a time. Now I'm old and no one listens to me. That's ironic............snicker!
Aw Hell, I don't care. Now, I just play with guns, ride my Harley and play with my dog, Jake. Life is simple and good.

The Speer book is a good one and well worth the money. If you'd like me to check anything else in the other manuals, I'll be happy to help.

Flash

Youngsters do tend to dismiss us as we get older... that is until they need help with something they can't figure out, then they're your best friend. And playing with guns, the Harley and the dog, sounds like fun too! Life should be simple and good.

Have a good one Roger

 

[ROGER4314]

I forgot. I taught wood shop, too and had some interesting class projects. We had teams that designed speaker boxes. Those boxes must be designed so the woofers move sufficient volumes of air or bass is lost. It's pretty technical and the Principal HATED my class. You could hear us at the far end of the district!

We also made routed signs but the little turds kept making nasty signs. I taught wood turning and making router dovetails, too.

I'm going to start a thread about belt buckles made at the aircraft plant where I worked. It's ready to post. With me, it was commercial jets and fighters.

Flash

 

[Deavis]

Hornady gives the same loads for up to three or four bullets in the proper category.

When they list multiple bullets, they most likely developed the loading with the bullet that generated the highest pressure of the bunch.

Andrew, you won't regret getting the Speer book, it's pretty good as far as manuals go.

 

[andrew678122]

When they list multiple bullets, they most likely developed the loading with the bullet that generated the highest pressure of the bunch.

Andrew, you won't regret getting the Speer book, it's pretty good as far as manuals go.

I have gotten quite a few votes for the Speer manual, so I will get it, the Lee reloader's manual and the Lyman 30 caliber load data. Hopefully they will do me.

 

[jbcalhoun]

I have reloading books dating back to the early 50's and up from there. They are a great resource as is the Bullet MFG and Powder MFG web sites.

Many of the web sites have free downloadable reloading information. I save as many as I can and use them from time to time.

Use caution as not all firearms are the same, various lots of powder react differently as do bullets. Always reduce the load by 10% and work up from there.

Good luck and never be afraid to ask questions.

Brad

 

[macshooter]

If your getting a manual from the bullet manufacturer then it will have the information your looking for. If your not using name brand bullets then contact the manufacturer and ask them what they recommend. Oh and if you think $50 is a waste on a manual it will pail in comparison to some of that wonderful relaible info some stranger on the net gives you and you blow up your gun.

And you were ripping me for erring on the side of safety, and suggesting that it's not a good idea to reload using lead bullets in a factory glock barrel???! Wow.

Then spend $10 on reading glasses and reread my previous post.

..........

I can see these posts were from a few days ago. I really hope you got over whatever was bothering you.

 

[Deavis]

the Lee reloader's manual

No offense to the Lee fan club, but skip the Lee manual or rather self-congratulatory book and get the Sierra manual instead. It is bound, has a bunch of fun cartridge information, has a nice format, and is useful... the Lee manual... not so much. Heck, I'll give you mine if you'll get it off my shelf... it embarasses my Elements of Ordnance book

 

[andrew678122]

Regarding reloading data, this is what I have gleaned from the manuals I now have (Speer's, Lee's, Lyman's .30 cal reload data, Hodgdon's Basic Reloading Manual, and the .30-30 Loadbook), as well as Hodgdon's, Sierra's, Speer's, etc websites, for the .30-30 Winchester:

.30-30 150gr / IMR4895........starting gr..maximum gr
Lyman.....................................26.5..............30
Speer Hot-Cor 2011.................27.................31
Sierra Pro Hunter 2000............28.9..............31.7
Barnes XFN..............................29.................33
Hodgdon Basic Reloading M............................33.5
Hodgdon website......................31.5..............33.5
Lee..........................................31.5..............33.5

If you look, you will see that Speer's Maximum load is less than Lee's or Hodgdon's starting load ?? WTF ??? Someone is wrong, a PSI or CUP for Speer has to be the same as a PSI or CUP for Hodgdon.

Don't use these figures, go look them up yourself. I take no responsibility for these figures or the accuracy of them, they were simply copied from the pertinent manuals and are included here to highlite the inconsistencies in reload data.

Anyway... I went to the range earlier this week and shot 40 rounds of reloads. All were with the Speer 2011 150gr bullet. I loaded 20 of them with H4895 and 20 with IMR4895, 27.0 grains of powder in both cases, Speer's and Lyman's starting load. They were easy to shoot, little recoil, and seemed to do pretty good, with no appreciable difference between the two powders. Groupings were about 1-1/4" to 1-5/8" at an accurately measured 50 yards. I'm pleased with the performance, and it'll save on powder and wear-and-tear (both on the equipment and me). I did have the occasional flyer that I discarded. I am certain that in the hands of a good shooter the grouping would be under an inch at 50 yards.

For now I'm just going to do my reloading using Speer's starting load, and probably with IMR4895 since it is the more useful powder.

 

[andrew678122]

From the preceeding table, if I drop the first Hodgdon line of data (since it's a duplicate of the next line anyway) and average all of the recomendations I get this:

29 grains to start and a max of 32 grains

In light of the recomendations from various sources, I think that makes sense. I also had a friend with much more experience than I, independently recomend 29 grains as a starting load.

 

[skinman]

Way back in the mid-70s when I first started reloading .357 mag for my New Model Blackhawk and 30-06 on a Rock Chucker, I used Lee dies and powder measure scoops. I didn't have a scale and bought whatever powder and bullets I could afford and really didn't worry about such things. I loaded thousands and never once had any issues other than brass wearing out.

Today, I have a more sophisticated loading setup, have several powder brands on hand, use an electronic scale, and have different bullets and primers on hand, and work with load data I have collected from Internet sites, bullet and powder manufacturer's websites, as well as my Lee and Lyman books and suggested recipes from friends and members of this and other forums. I do not worry if I cannot find specific load data for a Precision Delta or Zero bullet or Golden West .223 or bulk off-brand .308 I got from GB because I know that if I start below the max load and tweak it, I will find a good load if the bullets are good. My go to load for 9mm 115 gr Zero FMJ is a recipe I got from a member here when I also got too wrapped up with trying to find load data for Zero and Precision Delta bullets only to discover that there was none published. I developed an excellent recipe for Precision Delta 230 gr .45 acp FMJ and Win-231 starting with the minimum load data in the Hodgdon website database and tweaking.

My point is, don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. Use the load data available from whatever sources you are comfortable with, be safe, and have fun...and don't be so critical of folks who don't do it your way.