Don't Feed the Ammo Flippers

[recoveringyankee]

You might not be, and other experienced firearms folks might not be. But plenty of others are which encourage resellers to do what they're doing. The more resellers can be discouraged with less sales, the less it will be worth it for them to continue clearing shelves.

I agree, this "panic demand" needs to reduce, I see a lot of this as results from the "Instant gratification, no effort" mentality that has gripped many/most Americans. You want it now, you are gonna pay, I don't see that is a bad thing because that connivence has value, and apparently to some that connivence is worth $.80/rnd for 9mm FMJ compared to $.25/rnd from last year.

Sorry if I came off as an a$$hole, I'm still recovering :-)

I know it's frustrating, I'm frustrated also, I was hopping to start a reloading hobby this year. The problem is that I don't see any of the players here as "bad guys", even the flippers. The flippers are Capitalists, they see a spike in the demand (an opportunity to make some money) and they are taking advantage of it.

Are there people here convinced they are good at this point if they never bought ammo ever again? Have you altered your shooting habits? Are you fine making those compromises for forever?

Being convinced that I'm good to go at this point would take A LOT of ammo. I have slowed my shooting. I am NOT fine with making those compromises for forever, but unless I want to go into the ammunition manufacturing from raw materials business or stop shooting my feelings really have nothing to do with the issue.

 

[recoveringyankee]

Yeh, new shooters have got to be hurting right now. Though it might weed people out too. Kind of like when people get a new gym membership after New Years and the gym is full the first month or two. But the crowd thins out as you see who was really serious about working out. With firearms we might see the people who are serious about it learn and get savvy. The ones that bought to be on the whirlwind bandwagon, they'll phase out.

and maybe sell their stuff cheep :-)

 

[Vaquero]

Everytime it changes hands, the price goes up. Simple. It'll go from the retailer's hands to mine. I don't need another pair of hands to tote it around for me. When I do, I'm through shooting.

 

[deemus]

I remember when I thought Cabela's was expensive ammo. And not that long ago. I'm fortunate to have plenty, and also am able to reload if I want to.

BTW Shorts, loved the video. lol

 

[vince_w2004]

I obtained 600 rds of 5.56mm and .223 in 12 days via Walmart, and the local gun stores. Average 40 cents a round. But I shoot it! All of it!!! That's what you're supposed to do with it right?

 

[Greg_TX]

I obtained 600 rds of 5.56mm and .223 in 12 days via Walmart, and the local gun stores. Average 40 cents a round. But I shoot it! All of it!!! That's what you're supposed to do with it right?

You're doing it right...

 

[1slow01Z71]

The lack of response since I posted "I have ammo" is curious. Did that change what people were arguing with me about? Were their replies simply intended as simple chastisement and righteousness based on the assumption I had no ammo? Through the course of the thread the arguments drifted from free market capitalism to finger pointing and assigning blame. I'm not to blame for no ammo on the store shelves. I'm irritated I can't go to the store and pick up a box like I regularly do.




The idea is you look up the product online and get the UPC # I believe. Go to the store very late, around 11pm or so when they are in restocking mode. Go to the ammo section and likely the shelves will be bare. You go find an employee (some profile to find the person who looks like they least care about ammo, whatever that means to you). You show them the upc and tell them it shows in stock online but it isn't on the shelf. They will run a check on one of their scanners and it will say 'in stock'. That means it is in the store, it was unloaded on the dock and is in the stock room. The employee should/might/will go get it, or walk you to the pallet if it is staged for unloading.

That's the most of it. There is a detailed 'how to' but that up there is the summary of the thing I read. Now the catch is, many walmarts have a policy not to sell ammo between the hours of 10pm-7am. They claim it is state law. I don't know what law that is. I think it is a walmart policy, ether store by store or corporate. Since some people have been able to buy ammo using this late night purchase obviously not all walmarts enforce that policy. I imagine their gun counter was still closed but the customer just walked ammo up to the front registers.

What do you want me to say? Youre bitching about not be able to go buy ammo like you used to so obviously even though you have ammo youre not at the point you want to be so again you still werent prepared to the level you needed to be to have a comfortable supply. Our arguments are circluar so I just left it alone. Youre crying about capitalism, youre either for capitalism or against it. Sounds like you want to benefit from the capitalistic society we live in but bitch about it now that it directly effects your hobby. Youre trying to have your proverbial cake and eat it too. Doesnt work that way. Ive got no quam with your personally, just citing my opinion like many others. You just seem to ignore the points of this situation that are inconvenient to you like many others have pointed out.

I personally dont care how much ammo you or anyone else has and I dont feel the need to tell you how much ammo Ive got to prove any sort of point. Ive got enough to feed my need since I dont visit the range on a regular basis as I work six days a week and have a young family. My needs are satisfied enough I dont need to bitch about it on the internet, wait in line at early hours of the morning. If I need more ammo its only a lever pull away.

 

[Greg_TX]

I personally dont care how much ammo you or anyone else has and I dont feel the need to tell you how much ammo Ive got to prove any sort of point. Ive got enough to feed my need since I dont visit the range on a regular basis as I work six days a week and have a young family. My needs are satisfied enough I dont need to bitch about it on the internet, wait in line at early hours of the morning. If I need more ammo its only a lever pull away.

I have no beef with you personally, but I'm calling bullshit on what you just wrote above. From post #33 in this thread:

Ive got a pretty damn good stock of everything I shoot but Ive stopped shooting nearly as much as its much harder to replace at a decent price. Hell I went to the SA range meet Saturday and only brought a box of 45 to try out some of the guys 1911s. I couldve easily busted off a few thousand rounds of 22 but Id rather have it for later on once I get my suppressors. Its my own fault for not getting more 22 so Id feel more comfortable plinking.

Oh really? Why is it that people who preach the most about being prepared and having plenty of ammo have decided to slow down or stop shooting? Y'all shake your finger at people who are in the market for ammo, but you've been affected as well. And what about new shooters who are starting from scratch? What about someone like us that may be well stocked for what we shoot, but maybe want to buy a new gun of a different caliber and have to start from zero?

As for the capitalism crowd - just knock the shit off already. You know people are getting screwed, and one person's ignorance is another person's profit. Obviously there's a lot of demand, and supply is tight because the manufacturers can only crank out so many rounds per factory, but this isn't pure supply and demand. If I can buy 22LR from Midway, Wally World, Academy, BassPro, Gander, and others for less than 10 cents per round, then the broad market price is certainly less than that since nobody is going to sell at a loss in this market. I'm not going to defend anyone selling at 3-5x that price, but there's nothing that should stop them. Sure, the big boys can get better pricing on volume, but that's been the case all along and we haven't seen such blatant price disparities except for 2008 and now. Someone earlier made a comparison between ammo flippers and the people that follow a hurricane with trucks and trailers full of overpriced roofing materials, or who sold plywood for $50 a sheet before the storm hit - seems like a fitting comparison to me.

 

[navyguy]

What do you want me to say? Youre bitching about not be able to go buy ammo like you used to so obviously even though you have ammo youre not at the point you want to be so again you still werent prepared to the level you needed to be to have a comfortable supply. Our arguments are circluar so I just left it alone. Youre crying about capitalism, youre either for capitalism or against it. Sounds like you want to benefit from the capitalistic society we live in but bitch about it now that it directly effects your hobby. Youre trying to have your proverbial cake and eat it too. Doesnt work that way. Ive got no quam with your personally, just citing my opinion like many others. You just seem to ignore the points of this situation that are inconvenient to you like many others have pointed out.

I personally dont care how much ammo you or anyone else has and I dont feel the need to tell you how much ammo Ive got to prove any sort of point. Ive got enough to feed my need since I dont visit the range on a regular basis as I work six days a week and have a young family. My needs are satisfied enough I dont need to bitch about it on the internet, wait in line at early hours of the morning. If I need more ammo its only a lever pull away.

The point Ms Shorts was making is it has all changed drastically since late last year, and a lot of people in the gun community have exasperated it. Capitalism is wonderful, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I choose not to participate in the asinine antics going on. It is sad that others don't have the fortitude and foresight to do the same, less it would soon die out. If I don't go shoot for a year, I won't die. I've been shooting fire arms since I was 9 or 10 when I got my first .22. And I've also gone periods in my life where I didn't pick up a gun for 10 or more years because of work and family. I've got enough defense ammo to take care of my needs, and I've shot enough to know that my skills won't diminish in a short period of not shooting. I know Ms Shorts pretty well, and I'm pretty sure she's good to go in the skill area as well.

BTW, lever pull me some .22 LR while your at it.

 

[JColumbus]

The deals are around. You just gotta look a little harder then usual. I just got 100 rounds of .223 for 20 bucks and 900 rounds of 7.62x39 for 250. About to get 250 rounds of 00 buckshot for 140. They are their. The people who buy some 12 dollar 9mm and sell it for 25 dollars are the same type of people who haven't joined any gun rights organization, have a gun or two but have never shot it or have only once or twice, would not fight for their second amendment and don't vote. I don't give a damn about the free market excuse and I'm doing pretty well on ammo, but I still think it's sad to do that. Shows a lot about one's character. Some dumb ass on craigslist is trying to sell 5 pmags for $225. Anyone who is OK with that, is a low life in my book.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

Uh oh...I just saw Fox News pushing the ammo crisis. SMH

 

[Shorts]

What do you want me to say?

Honestly? I had hoped that folks with your opinion would not act like pricks when folks with my opinion discuss the issue.

What irritates me most in this entire discussion is that end users like me get attacked first by you and resellers that are perpetuating the inflated artificial demand are given a free pass in the name of money. That's what pisses me off. Yall hang fellow shooters out to dry with the "lazy & stupid" accusations, with the finger pointing blame and righteous attitude. Yet the problem of resellers is left to continue screwing the market and screwing end users, like me and even if you won't admit it, you too.

 

[navyguy]

Feinstein along with Obama and the Bardy Bunch are laughing their collective asses off at the gun community over this. They're no doubt delighted to see how we eat our own, and self regulate the sale of ammo.

 

[TheDan]

The ammo flippers are certainly a pain in the ass, but I really don't think they are causing this shortage. There has been an explosion of new gun owners and more people are wanting to have extra on hand. A little bit of a "prepper" attitude is spreading. The demand is enabling the flippers to do what they do, not the other way around. Now, you might be able to make the argument they are trying to corner the market, but I don't really think that's possible. There's still lots of ammo being pumped out by the manufacturers.

I know one thing for certain... At the current grey market prices, I'm really tempted to sell off some my stash. It's almost a liability not to

Why is it that people who preach the most about being prepared and having plenty of ammo have decided to slow down or stop shooting?

I can't really speak for others, but I tend to go into rationing mode. I know it's not always rational, but I do it with everything; even cookies... When I first get a package of cookies I'll eat a whole bunch, then the next time I open the package and realize 2/3rds is gone I'll think, "Damn! Maybe I should just have one or two now." It's not like these are the last cookies I'll ever be able to afford, but when my personal supply gets low I just automatically ration.

 

[1slow01Z71]

I have no beef with you personally, but I'm calling bullshit on what you just wrote above. From post #33 in this thread:


Oh really? Why is it that people who preach the most about being prepared and having plenty of ammo have decided to slow down or stop shooting? Y'all shake your finger at people who are in the market for ammo, but you've been affected as well. And what about new shooters who are starting from scratch? What about someone like us that may be well stocked for what we shoot, but maybe want to buy a new gun of a different caliber and have to start from zero?

As for the capitalism crowd - just knock the shit off already. You know people are getting screwed, and one person's ignorance is another person's profit. Obviously there's a lot of demand, and supply is tight because the manufacturers can only crank out so many rounds per factory, but this isn't pure supply and demand. If I can buy 22LR from Midway, Wally World, Academy, BassPro, Gander, and others for less than 10 cents per round, then the broad market price is certainly less than that since nobody is going to sell at a loss in this market. I'm not going to defend anyone selling at 3-5x that price, but there's nothing that should stop them. Sure, the big boys can get better pricing on volume, but that's been the case all along and we haven't seen such blatant price disparities except for 2008 and now. Someone earlier made a comparison between ammo flippers and the people that follow a hurricane with trucks and trailers full of overpriced roofing materials, or who sold plywood for $50 a sheet before the storm hit - seems like a fitting comparison to me.

I dont go to the range on any sort of schedule, its sporadic at best. My next purchase will be a 1911 and I knew a few guys would be bringing theirs so I brought the appropriate ammo to try theirs out without using their ammo since I know some dont have a lot to spare. I dont currently have any guns I really care to shoot, thats why Ive bought 3 new guns(all three rimfires BTW) in the last month or two. But none of them are ready to shoot, my FVSR needs glass, my 10/17HM2 build will be complete by next weekend, and I should be getting my red dot for my 15-22 tomorrow. So why go blast away with other guns Im bored with and didnt shoot before the panic? I just sold almost 4000 rounds of remington golden bullets on gunbroker and Ive still got that much again sitting in my safe. Im perfectly fine ammo wise on all fronts, just because I didnt go blasting away doesnt mean I dont have the ammo to do it. Its harder to replace right now but rocky mountain reloading just got a big chunk of my check for bullets so Im good.

The people using the hurricane supplies example are forgetting, ammo ISNT a necessity. Theres a reason why theres laws against price gouging in an EMERGENCY, short supplies on ammo isnt an emergency that endangers your life so quit using that as an example.

The point Ms Shorts was making is it has all changed drastically since late last year, and a lot of people in the gun community have exasperated it. Capitalism is wonderful, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I choose not to participate in the asinine antics going on. It is sad that others don't have the fortitude and foresight to do the same, less it would soon die out. If I don't go shoot for a year, I won't die. I've been shooting fire arms since I was 9 or 10 when I got my first .22. And I've also gone periods in my life where I didn't pick up a gun for 10 or more years because of work and family. I've got enough defense ammo to take care of my needs, and I've shot enough to know that my skills won't diminish in a short period of not shooting. I know Ms Shorts pretty well, and I'm pretty sure she's good to go in the skill area as well.

BTW, lever pull me some .22 LR while your at it.

No need for me to, Ive got a good stock of 22lr already but Ive always enjoyed shooting my 17hmr more and hopefully here soon my 10/17HM2. My interests in shooting have changed to more precision stuff rather than just blasting away. Unless we're out at the farm shooting at the reaction targets, those are just too much fun not play with but Lonestar doesnt like rapid fire or metal targets so I rarely get to play that way.

I dont feel sorry for the people just getting into the sport, it sucks but such is life. Ive recently gotten into reloading and it has taken a lot of time for me to find powders that I need but Ive found them and few decent prices. I cant find 308 caliber 175gr SMKs or 208gr Amaxs anywhere and theyve gone from being instock this summer to indefinite timeframe but you dont see me pissing and moaning on here about it do you? If I get desperate enough I can buy them on gunbroker for tripple the price but I refuse to feed the flippers. I can wait, no big deal, so can everyone else. Everyone buying this stuff are adults and can act like adults about this stuff. The only people you should actually feel sorry for are the kids as theyve got no control over being out of ammo.

Honestly? I had hoped that folks with your opinion would not act like pricks when folks with my opinion discuss the issue.

What irritates me most in this entire discussion is that end users like me get attacked first by you and resellers that are perpetuating the inflated artificial demand are given a free pass in the name of money. That's what pisses me off. Yall hang fellow shooters out to dry with the "lazy & stupid" accusations, with the finger pointing blame and righteous attitude. Yet the problem of resellers is left to continue screwing the market and screwing end users, like me and even if you won't admit it, you too.

Money makes the world go round, there are the haves and have-nots. Its a simple difference in philosophy and a lack of understanding of market forces. THe market only allows prices to inflate to the amount that people are willing to pay for a given good. So far the idiots havent run out of money but theyre getting close. Prices for ammo are starting to go down on the auction sites and ammo is starting to show back up on the shelves. I was at McBrides earlier today and they had all the 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and even some 223 in stock at pre-panic prices you could want.

Youre simply wrong about this "artificial demand" BS. If there is demand for a product there is demand, no such thing as artificial. People are buying so there is demand, its truly that simple. Itll chill out just like it did by the summer of 09, we are already seeing things come back down and more in stock. Most of the backorder dates are in the summer and by that time the inflated prices will be a thing of the past. Hell winchester 22lr had some massive shipments ealier this week and its only selling for double rather than triple or quadruple on the secondary market. Im not "attacking" you because I dont like you, Im correcting you about your misunderstanding of how a free market society works. Supply and demand when left alone controls itself. Complaining about it makes you think youre ok with outside forces(like the government) having control over a given market. We see how well that worked out for the housing market...

And I agree with pretty much everything in Dans post, hes a bit more eloquent with his analogy than I am.

 

[MatteR]

Two weeks ago I picked up an XDm. Since then I've purchased 1,000 rounds of 9mm. The most I paid was 36¢ a round but the majority were 30¢. People with more time than me probably find a better deal, people with more money pay more. People with way less money and more time might flip. Either way, I don't care and pay what I think is fair.