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FTF Sales where seller is 03 FFL?

Discussion in 'General Firearms & Ammo' started by rem1138, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. rem1138

    rem1138 New Member

    Sep 7, 2018
    Hi all,

    I had an interesting hypothetical question come to mind recently.

    I know that sellers requiring a Bill of Sale for FTF transactions generates a lot of spirited debate on this forum. Personally, I prefer my privacy and don't like to hand out my personal info to someone I just met and am likely to only meet once.

    However, what about the case of a FTF sale where the firearm being sold is a C&R eligible item and the seller is an 03 FFL? In this instance, the seller is required by federal law to take down the personal info of the buyer (Name, address, DOB, and DL/ID number if I remember correctly).

    One of the reasons I've seen Bills of Sale objected to is that they are not legally required and often cause more problems than they solve. But in this hypothetical involving C&R licensees and items, the legal situation is entirely different.

    So I guess my real question is what is the general opinion of members here on doing such sales? Would it be a deal breaker? Would it be fine with some so long as the seller advised the buyer of the requirements/situation well beforehand?

  2. rem1138

    rem1138 New Member

    Sep 7, 2018
    It came to mind that one way to legally avoid exchanging personal info would be to meet at an 01 FFL and have them conduct the transfer. If the 01 FFL puts the firearm into their books, then the 03 FFL would list the 01 FFL as the entity/person they are disposing the item to.

    Of course, that takes away much of the convenience of a simple FTF transaction! With the benefit of more privacy I guess.

    Just thinking out loud.
  3. lonestardiver

    lonestardiver Well-Known

    Dec 12, 2010
    Since the C&R had it on his books they are required to log it out to the new buyer whether an individual buyer or another fFL is purchasing it.

    If I understand the situation correctly. That is how it works.
    Inspector43, rem1138 and Sam7sf like this.
  4. rem1138

    rem1138 New Member

    Sep 7, 2018
    Yes. That is definitely my understanding as well.

    I guess my question is more about the buyer's perspective in this scenario. The 03 FFL is legally required to take down the buyer's personal info, but many people on this forum are averse to the idea of handing out their info willy-nilly in a FTF sale.

    Of course, I as a buyer would reasonably assume that an 03 FFL, that has submitted to a more extensive background check with the ATF, is pretty low risk for a potential theft of my personal information. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people's opinions are; I'm sure it's a situation that has come up before.
  5. SQLGeek

    SQLGeek Wheel Gun Nut TGT Supporter

    Sep 22, 2017
    As a newer FFL 03, I haven't run into this yet but I'd certainly understand if a private buyer or seller didn't want to go into my book. I don't like bills of sale myself so I don't know if I'd want to deal with an 03 before I was licensed.
    rem1138 likes this.
  6. rem1138

    rem1138 New Member

    Sep 7, 2018
    Agreed. As a recent 03 licensee, I think we pretty much see eye to eye on the matter. I'm just curious as to what everyone thinks. For those unwilling to hand-out their info to an 03, I think the only legal option (other than just not conducting the sale!) would be to transfer through an 01 FFL. Of course that adds time and cost.
  7. TxStetson

    TxStetson Usually Here TGT Supporter Lifetime Member

    I remember someone posting something for sale in the classifieds not too long ago, and stating “Sorry guys, this one is on my C&R so I will be needing all your info”.

    I don’t believe anyone should have an issue if they know about it in advance.
    rem1138, motorcarman and jar like this.
  8. motorcarman

    motorcarman Compulsive Collector

    Feb 13, 2015
    Rural Wise County, TX.
    I bought several crates of Mosin Nagants when they were being imported and still cheap. I sold all but 8 rifles that I wanted to keep and nobody I sold to had a problem with giving me name and address etc. They all knew me and trusted me and realized that the rifles needed to be disposed of in accordance with the bound book rules.

    Unless something really bad happens, the ATF will never see the bound book and only the FFL03 holder will have that info. FFL03 records are NOT returned to the ATF unless the licensee is investigated (records seized).

    If someone will not buy from FFL03, then why would they provide more info to FFL01 or FFL02?? The FFL03 has no requirement for 4473 so even less info is revealed.

    Just me thinking out loud.

    rem1138, TheMailMan and Southpaw like this.
  9. sucker76

    sucker76 Don't let the username fool you

    Nov 15, 2015
    Lake Jackson
    I myself am not too worried about giving info to a FFL03 on this site. I bought one a few weeks ago and that was one of the questions I asked first. "Is this on your C&R?" The answer was no but I was prepared to give info going into a transaction of an old rifle.
    rem1138 likes this.
  10. Southpaw

    Southpaw Honky Lips TGT Supporter

    Mar 30, 2009
    Guadalupe Co.
    Also, an 03 is, IMO different then some stranger in a parking lot. An 03's information is attainable and known unlike Billy Bob in a FTF. Of course, that doesn't say the 03 can't be a bad actor, but him having some skin in the game, I believe cuts down on the chances of that happening.

    sucker76 and rem1138 like this.

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