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FTF Sales where seller is 03 FFL?

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  • rem1138

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    Sep 7, 2018
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    Hi all,

    I had an interesting hypothetical question come to mind recently.

    I know that sellers requiring a Bill of Sale for FTF transactions generates a lot of spirited debate on this forum. Personally, I prefer my privacy and don't like to hand out my personal info to someone I just met and am likely to only meet once.

    However, what about the case of a FTF sale where the firearm being sold is a C&R eligible item and the seller is an 03 FFL? In this instance, the seller is required by federal law to take down the personal info of the buyer (Name, address, DOB, and DL/ID number if I remember correctly).

    One of the reasons I've seen Bills of Sale objected to is that they are not legally required and often cause more problems than they solve. But in this hypothetical involving C&R licensees and items, the legal situation is entirely different.

    So I guess my real question is what is the general opinion of members here on doing such sales? Would it be a deal breaker? Would it be fine with some so long as the seller advised the buyer of the requirements/situation well beforehand?
    Lynx Defense
     

    rem1138

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    It came to mind that one way to legally avoid exchanging personal info would be to meet at an 01 FFL and have them conduct the transfer. If the 01 FFL puts the firearm into their books, then the 03 FFL would list the 01 FFL as the entity/person they are disposing the item to.

    Of course, that takes away much of the convenience of a simple FTF transaction! With the benefit of more privacy I guess.

    Just thinking out loud.
     

    rem1138

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    Since the C&R had it on his books they are required to log it out to the new buyer whether an individual buyer or another fFL is purchasing it.

    If I understand the situation correctly. That is how it works.

    Yes. That is definitely my understanding as well.

    I guess my question is more about the buyer's perspective in this scenario. The 03 FFL is legally required to take down the buyer's personal info, but many people on this forum are averse to the idea of handing out their info willy-nilly in a FTF sale.

    Of course, I as a buyer would reasonably assume that an 03 FFL, that has submitted to a more extensive background check with the ATF, is pretty low risk for a potential theft of my personal information. I'm just trying to get a sense of what people's opinions are; I'm sure it's a situation that has come up before.
     

    SQLGeek

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    As a newer FFL 03, I haven't run into this yet but I'd certainly understand if a private buyer or seller didn't want to go into my book. I don't like bills of sale myself so I don't know if I'd want to deal with an 03 before I was licensed.
     

    rem1138

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    As a newer FFL 03, I haven't run into this yet but I'd certainly understand if a private buyer or seller didn't want to go into my book. I don't like bills of sale myself so I don't know if I'd want to deal with an 03 before I was licensed.

    Agreed. As a recent 03 licensee, I think we pretty much see eye to eye on the matter. I'm just curious as to what everyone thinks. For those unwilling to hand-out their info to an 03, I think the only legal option (other than just not conducting the sale!) would be to transfer through an 01 FFL. Of course that adds time and cost.
     

    TxStetson

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    I remember someone posting something for sale in the classifieds not too long ago, and stating “Sorry guys, this one is on my C&R so I will be needing all your info”.

    I don’t believe anyone should have an issue if they know about it in advance.
     

    motorcarman

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    I bought several crates of Mosin Nagants when they were being imported and still cheap. I sold all but 8 rifles that I wanted to keep and nobody I sold to had a problem with giving me name and address etc. They all knew me and trusted me and realized that the rifles needed to be disposed of in accordance with the bound book rules.

    Unless something really bad happens, the ATF will never see the bound book and only the FFL03 holder will have that info. FFL03 records are NOT returned to the ATF unless the licensee is investigated (records seized).

    If someone will not buy from FFL03, then why would they provide more info to FFL01 or FFL02?? The FFL03 has no requirement for 4473 so even less info is revealed.

    Just me thinking out loud.

    bob
     

    sucker76

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    I myself am not too worried about giving info to a FFL03 on this site. I bought one a few weeks ago and that was one of the questions I asked first. "Is this on your C&R?" The answer was no but I was prepared to give info going into a transaction of an old rifle.
     

    Southpaw

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    Also, an 03 is, IMO different then some stranger in a parking lot. An 03's information is attainable and known unlike Billy Bob in a FTF. Of course, that doesn't say the 03 can't be a bad actor, but him having some skin in the game, I believe cuts down on the chances of that happening.
     

    rem1138

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    I remember someone posting something for sale in the classifieds not too long ago, and stating “Sorry guys, this one is on my C&R so I will be needing all your info”.

    I don’t believe anyone should have an issue if they know about it in advance.

    I think this is definitely the most diplomatic answer. As long as everyone is aware of the matter ahead of time, I wouldn't consider it a problem either.

    If it was mentioned at the last minute, that might be a breach of etiquette...of course, I would hope folks do their research on what they're buying, and know ahead of time that it's C&R and information could be required if the seller is an 03.
     

    motorcarman

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    I will stipulate that if someone has a problem with providing info for my 'BOUND BOOK' if I sell a firearm from something entered, I will insist that the sale be completed through FFL01/FFL02!! (info there or info HERE, I don't care, ATF DOES!!!!!)

    I would guess that 1/3rd of my collection is entered into my bound book.
    That would indicate that 2/3rds were purchased from FFL01/FFL02 or from individuals.

    If/When I sell something from my collection, I check my records and determine the path of course.

    If I bought something from FFL01/FFL02 or individual then it is just a simple 'I trust you and here it is' transaction. No need to 'jump-through-hoops'. I guess I have been lucky to have never sold something to a complete stranger.

    I know enough people here on this forum or personally to trade successfully and not have problems.

    My collection is NOT about money but about having what I want to have/collect or trade up. I bought something that cost a bunch only to find it selling for less a year later. After a few years, the same thing was selling for more!! If it still did not retain it's value I assess and keep or move on.

    I enjoy shooting ALL my collectables and they leave when I no longer enjoy shooting them or trade a duplicate for something else.

    Jay Leno collects cars!!! It costs more to maintain a car than an old firearm!!!!!!!!!

    just sayin'

    bob
     

    robertc1024

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    I'd have no issue giving info to an 03. I've always turned down buys I wanted when the seller wanted a BOS.
     
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