Head shot vs Center Mass

[Big country]

Very good info in this thread.
I'm going to send lead into the center mass until either A) I see that that is not working and the attacker is still coming at me, or B) the threat is neutralized. I don't do any armored car or bank stuff at the moment or ever but, in my gun toting scenarios those are the only two that I can think of that would likely present me with an attacker wearing body armor. So I will shoot center mass unless the attacker is wearing armor or not slowing from the chest hits. I will not shoot at the knees or shoulders for any reason other than that is the only target I have. That is a great way to get sued by someone who attacked you. This is all just my opinion based on the training and teaching I've had so it is by no means from an expert. LOL! Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith are both authorities in this field I'd suggest looking into both of there literature for insight on this matter.

 

[txinvestigator]

I don't make tactical or life/death decisions based on the potential for lawsuit. The moment you press the trigger, that ship has sailed.

 

[Big country]

I don't make tactical or life/death decisions based on the potential for lawsuit. The moment you press the trigger, that ship has sailed.

Very true. But that is why I don't set out to shoot for those areas. If the situation calls for one of those then that is what the situation will get.

 

[Wolfwood]

thanks for all the great POVs on this topic.

looks like i have some reading to do.
ive got the asoob book mentioned in PDF format. and willb egin reading when iget off of work

 

[Texas1911]

I don't make tactical or life/death decisions based on the potential for lawsuit. The moment you press the trigger, that ship has sailed.

Yeah, at the point the gun comes out you are directly threatened. At that point all bets are off, it's kill or be killed / maimed.

If I have the luxury of a head shot I'll take it. If the guy is very close and I'm in the corner, I'm going for the head. If I have room to move, I'll take the safer bet with the chest.

I shoot at least 3 times a week, so I'm somewhat confident in my ability to place shots.

I would like to work under stress. Specifically knives, as guns don't really have the same effect as before on my stress level. I'm much more afraid of a knife than a gun.

 

[LS6TT]

I would like to work under stress. Specifically knives, as guns don't really have the same effect as before on my stress level. I'm much more afraid of a knife than a gun.

So am I.

 

[Aaronthenia]

Just went through another patrol rifle class and we shot a few head shots, but we concentrated more on the pelvic region for instances of body armor.

 

[M. Sage]

That's odd. A patrol rifle shouldn't have any trouble with most body armor... Rifle armor is pretty expensive and usually only gives a limited coverage anyway.

As far as shattering bones; handguns generally won't. The velocity is too low, and they apparently tend to simply put holes in bones. Rifles will shatter stuff, though, but if you have a fail to stop on multiple chest shots, I doubt shattered bones are going to settle the score.

Had a SF medic tell me once that the damage done by a rifle at close range is similar to the trauma you'd see in someone who gets hit by a car traveling at a good clip. Everything around the wound is broken, bruised (all the way through) and generally mangled.

Rifles is rifles. Handguns is handguns.

 

[Texas42]

It could be a mistake on the instructor's part.

Either way, if you have time and interest, borrow a Netter's antomical Atlas. Lots of stuff in the pelvis. Large veins and arteries. Nerves to the legs come out of the lumbar region.

 

[hkusp1]

He is either;

a) kidding

or

b) to be ignored

its was option A but on a serious not i would go for the chest area.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

"...A determined or high attacker can be immobilized with broken/shattered pelvis".


True....so can a guy on a Harley. I would know. I was hit on my Harley, by a idiot that failed to yield the right of way and will probably never fully recover. With that being said, A shattered pelvis WILL immobilize ANYONE.

I was always taught to aim center mass. Shoot the largest target. One to the head is good in theory, but what if you miss and hit a friendly instead. The chances are much better to hit center mass without opening you up to a legal box of worms.

 

[M. Sage]

It could be a mistake on the instructor's part.

Either way, if you have time and interest, borrow a Netter's antomical Atlas. Lots of stuff in the pelvis. Large veins and arteries. Nerves to the legs come out of the lumbar region.

Oh trust me: I know all about those from first-hand experience!

 

[ftw13]

center mass,forget head shots when shooting under duress.....at least in public,with bystanders about

 

[fm2]

I shoot for high center mass shots. I'm talking about the area bordered by nipple to nipple and collarbone to diaphram.Think of where the verticle centerline and the horizontal line from armpit to armpit intersect.

Remember, head shots really should be in the ocular window for the best chance of penetration.

 

[txinvestigator]

Remember, head shots really should be in the ocular window for the best chance of penetration.

Based on what?

 

[fm2]

Based on the relative low power of handgun rounds, curvature of the skull, recommendations from trainers that have attended autopsies, and researched shooting reports & interviewed participants.



Is there another area on the head that offers an equal or better chance of bullet penetration?

 

[Texas1911]

Based on the relative low power of handgun rounds, curvature of the skull, recommendations from trainers that have attended autopsies, and researched shooting reports & interviewed participants.

Is there another area on the head that offers an equal or better chance of bullet penetration?

I can't think of a single bullet that will not penetrate a skull, or someone's face.

If the bullet can be trusted to penetrate the ribs and other centroid bone structure, then what resistance is a skull going to provide?

Hitting someone in the eye hole with a pistol is like trying to weave a basket, running in a mine field.

 

[fm2]

How about a glaser? I heard this last weekend that one hit between the nose and teeth. It fragmented into the sinus cavity and cheekbones. Those bullets are known to get a couple of inches of penetration in the torso and stop.

I'm not saying a handgun bullet cannot penetrate into the cheekbone or sinus cavity. What I am saying is in order to get incapacitation with a handgun, we need to decrease the central nervous system's functioning. That is accomplished by destroying the central nervous system tissue, or creating a lack of oxygen to the brain, bleeding out or loss of blood pressure. We need enough penetration to accomplish incapacitation.



In regards to the skull, what I've heard and seen is the bullet penetrating the skin on the head and glancing off the skull and traveling around the skull under the skin and exiting the skin. This can be due to the curvature of the skull, round nose of the bullet, low power of the round, angle of impact or a combination of the factors. IIRC it's shown in the miami shootout autopsy.

Here's one example.

Figure IV-2 (Platt scalp wound A) is a close-up overhead view perspective illustration showing Platt sitting in the driver’s seat of Grogan/Dove’s car attempting to start the car with his left hand. Matix is depicted sitting directly next to him on the passenger side leaning forward attempting to turn the key in the ignition. The trajectory of Mireles first two shots that he fired from his handgun are shown. Bullet one enters the passenger compartment through the driver’s side window and hits the back of the front seat near Platt’s left shoulder. The second bullet is shown entering the passenger compartment though the driver’s window and hitting Platt in the right forehead . Platt is depicted looking at Mireles while he’s bent forward trying to turn the ignition key. The bullet is shown hitting the right side of Platt’s head, ricocheting off the curved external surface of the skull but being trapped between the skull and scalp, stopping just above the right temple.(emphasis mine)

from firearms tactical briefs 7, July 1988
Anderson, W. French, M.D.: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. W. French Anderson, M.D., 1996 (127 pages, paperback)


Here's some more data:

... Third, the skull is a heavily armored vault in which the brain is stored, and from the front, cheekbones, the hard palate, and the teeth often stop or deflect handgun bullets, preventing their reaching the brain.

"Fighting Smarter" by Tom Givens

 

[Texas42]

simple. Don't use Glasers

EDIT: and don't shoot at the head unless you have to. Handguns may be "low power," but they have plenty of "power" to punch through a skull.

 

[txinvestigator]

How about a glaser? I heard this last weekend that one hit between the nose and teeth. It fragmented into the sinus cavity and cheekbones. Those bullets are known to get a couple of inches of penetration in the torso and stop.

... Third, the skull is a heavily armored vault in which the brain is stored, and from the front, cheekbones, the hard palate, and the teeth often stop or deflect handgun bullets, preventing their reaching the brain.

"Fighting Smarter" by Tom Givens

You are making statements based on the performance of 1986 ammo and glaser safety slugs?

All of your blah, blah aside, most folks would be lucky to strike the head at all, much less an eye socket.

And modern, defensive ammo is quite capable of penetrating the head.