Help me understand being religious

[atticus finch]

It would take too long to respond to all your questions or correct where you have been mis-informed in one post so I recommend you study the origins of the Bible, especially the various translations from the original Hebrew. You mention the Sixth Commandment "Thou shall not Kill" as a moral guide and wonder if people would be less inhibited to "kill" sans religion but what most people don't know is that the original Hebrew text of the Decalogue was "Thou shalt not Murder". There are multiple examples of killing that went unpunished in the Bible e.g. David slew Goliath just as there are examples of murderers that WERE punished such as Cain when he slew Abel. We need to differentiate "killing" from "murdering" when we discuss the Bible. Speaking personally, it didn't take much of a leap of faith for me to believe in God...he has shown himself to me many, many times in my life and has actively protected me from many dangerous situations. I once was T-boned in an intersection by an 18 year old girl late for a Hallowe'en party who was doing twice the legal speed limit in an 1988 Chrysler LeBaron. She hit the driver's side door of my vehicle causing it to simultaneously buckle inwards as the floorboards were pushed up to hit the dash. My vehicle then rolled over and came to rest against another vehicle. I had no side curtain airbags and took the full force of the collision with my head, shoulder, and hip. All I remember was an overwhelming sense of peace as I felt two giant hands cup my body to protect it from the force of the crash. When I was able to extricate myself I walked over to a lawn and had a peaceful nap while mayhem ensued all around me as emergency vehicles arrived. I was taken by ambulance to to the local hospital where the trauma team had been forewarned of a "driver with serious injuries". The doctor examined me, found no injuries and asked me "Where's the driver?" I told him I was. He told me I must have been the passenger to have come out of the crash unscathed and continued to ask all around him, "Where's the driver!?!". He was incredulous when he realized that indeed, I was the driver. I was released soon after with no injuries. Many Christians believe in Guardian Angels whom God sends to watch over us....mine is a very powerful one.

I've heard of this, the original hebrew saying "thou shalt not murder" rather than as is currently written. And it makes complete sense, do you have any idea where I might find information on this? I've wanted to find that out but have no idea where or how to search for it.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

A lot of the original texts in Greek and Hebrew are in the Vatican library. I believe some have been imaged and are online if you search. You would have to know Ancient Greek to translate though.

There's a seminary in some large cities with monks who can translate if you're interested. I believe Ancient Greek is taught in high school at Central Catholic in San Antonio.

 

[breakingcontact]

If you get a really good study Bible it will have lots of notes about the original language and the context.

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

 

[shortround]

God, guns, religion, and politics. All in one forum!

Guns and politics are interrelated as a matter of conflicting views of governmental control. Guns and God are unassailable if you believe that a higher power has granted us inalienable rights.

As for religion -- that debate ought to be hammered out on a theologically themed forum.

Unfortunately our President once referred to patriots when he said: "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Are there gun ranges in Heaven?

 

[breakingcontact]

Great conversation guys. Hope to keep it rolling. Im glad people are asking questions. Its a beautiful opportunity to share the life changing reality of the gospel.

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

 

[jrbfishn]

You can be spiritual without subscribing to what most call religion. The american indian in their own way were very spiritual. Believed in a creator and all powerfull being. Not unlike what people believe in more conventional religions. Tended to treat people not much different than the tenents of most as well. The old and orphands, the crippled and infeirm, all cared for by all. Even took in orphans of other tribes and raised them as their own. In their own way,very spiritual, without a set religion. Just a common denominator. That something created all, and all was needed for true balance.


from a non-recovering coffeeholic

 

[TheDan]

Ny700, you're not alone. I grew up with a bunch of people just like the Duck Dynasty folks (love the show, btw...) so I've had plenty of exposure as well, but never "got it" either. I do understand the community aspect to it, but as you pointed out those communities would likely exist even in the absence of a common faith. I get a little annoyed at people that think church is the only way to have a community because a sense of community spring from pretty much anything. TGT is a community and the only thing we really have in common is that we're all gun enthusiast of one form or other. A week can't even go by without a thread where we vehemently disagree on what it means to be a gun enthusiast, but we're all still here enjoying each other's company and helping each other out.

I think the main reason why I could never "get it", is because I fundamentally don't understand faith. Faith is the end of knowledge. Questions about the creation of the universe, meaning of life, what happens when we die, etc... are interesting thought experiments, but ultimately irrelevant. Science can't answer these questions, but faith can't either. If you ask people of different faiths what happens when they die, they will say they know absolutely what will happen, but one might say they will either go to heaven or hell, another might say they will be reincarnated, another might say they will lose their sense of self and rejoin the great spirit, ad infinitum... I'm more comfortable just saying I don't know, because it's not possible to know.

 

[Sapper740]

I didn't grow up in the Church. So I understand how some dont "get it". I didnt either for most of my life. But once that switch was flipped there is no shutting it off.

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

Exactly. I studiously avoided religion like the plague when I was young...and I have the legacy of a life of sin to show for it now. Fortunately God lifted the veil of ignorance from my eyes and once I saw the light...you're right....there's no shutting it off.

 

[Sapper740]

I would say it's the opposite. It's a good example of everything's that right about religion. People may disagree with the beliefs but we don't sway with the wind. Right and wrong are right and wrong, not a public opinion poll.

I'm Protestant and thusly disagree with the Roman Catholic church over what are sacraments and what are not...but I respect Catholics for their staunchness and that they are fellow Brothers in Christ. It's no different than within any family, I may disagree with them but love them still.

 

[Sapper740]

I've heard of this, the original hebrew saying "thou shalt not murder" rather than as is currently written. And it makes complete sense, do you have any idea where I might find information on this? I've wanted to find that out but have no idea where or how to search for it.

I first heard of this when listening to Dennis Prager on AM660 "The Answer". Mr. Prager is a Jew who has studied the Bible, the Torah, the Mitzvah, and Rabbinical Law and the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. Apparently, Hebrew, unlike other languages, is virtually unchanged throughout the millennia and the original Commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tirtzach!" which commands us to not MURDER. http://jpfo.org/rabbi/6th-commandment.htm

 

[Sapper740]

You can be spiritual without subscribing to what most call religion. The american indian in their own way were very spiritual. Believed in a creator and all powerfull being. Not unlike what people believe in more conventional religions. Tended to treat people not much different than the tenents of most as well. The old and orphands, the crippled and infeirm, all cared for by all. Even took in orphans of other tribes and raised them as their own. In their own way,very spiritual, without a set religion. Just a common denominator. That something created all, and all was needed for true balance.


from a non-recovering coffeeholic

Here's some true balance for you: Cannibalism was practiced by some Native American societies, particularly among tribes of the north. Jesuits living with the Iroquois recorded it, as well as torture, by the victors over those defeated in battle and there is evidence that these customs endured into the eighteenth century. Many tribes also were active slavers and kept members of conquered neighboring tribes as slaves. Many wish to see the North American natives as "Lo, the Noble Savage" but as with many things, the romanticized version usually hides the full story.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

...I get a little annoyed at people that think church is the only way to have a community because a sense of community spring from pretty much anything. TGT is a community and the only thing we really have in common is that we're all gun enthusiast of one form or other...
/QUOTE]

I agree it's not the only way. It's just that it is a pretty good way to provide for a community's needs in the absence of government.

There's secular groups that do good work as well.

 

[vmax]

You can be spiritual without subscribing to what most call religion. The american indian in their own way were very spiritual. Believed in a creator and all powerfull being. Not unlike what people believe in more conventional religions. Tended to treat people not much different than the tenents of most as well. The old and orphands, the crippled and infeirm, all cared for by all. Even took in orphans of other tribes and raised them as their own. In their own way,very spiritual, without a set religion. Just a common denominator. That something created all, and all was needed for true balance

being spiritual is not the key if your goal is to be justified before Almighty God.
if you think about it, pagans are spriritual, so are other various cults that practice things like animal sacrifice or beastiality. Cannibal tribes in Africa had spritual leaders that they followed.

The native americans were not the saint like people you make them out to be. Some tribes frequently sold or traded their wives and children to various Eurpopean traders that came along with things that interested them.
While it was generally ok for the male to be adulterous, the women were punished severley even having their noses cut off as a mark of shame.

It is not a matter of religion or being spiritual. The Holy Bible states clearly that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind and He is the only way of Salvation. He is the bridge between God and Man.

 

[atticus finch]

I first heard of this when listening to Dennis Prager on AM660 "The Answer". Mr. Prager is a Jew who has studied the Bible, the Torah, the Mitzvah, and Rabbinical Law and the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. Apparently, Hebrew, unlike other languages, is virtually unchanged throughout the millennia and the original Commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tirtzach!" which commands us to not MURDER. The Ten Commandments, Killing, and Murder: A Detailed Commentary

Thank you very much, excellent article and good work on your part finding it. I'd often wondered about the current wording of the the 6th, I have a King James bible & it does say "thou shalt not kill" First thing that went through my mind is "ok, did the jews who fought the nazis in warsaw commit a moral wrong in doing so? If so, how?" It just didn't add up but I figured there had to be an explanation somewhere, I'd heard about the translation error & that seemed to make sense of it. Now I know that is the case, an error in translation somehow got put in there.

 

[rsayloriii]

being spiritual is not the key if your goal is to be justified before Almighty God.
if you think about it, pagans are spriritual, so are other various cults that practice things like animal sacrifice or beastiality. Cannibal tribes in Africa had spritual leaders that they followed.

The native americans were not the saint like people you make them out to be. Some tribes frequently sold or traded their wives and children to various Eurpopean traders that came along with things that interested them.
While it was generally ok for the male to be adulterous, the women were punished severley even having their noses cut off as a mark of shame.

It is not a matter of religion or being spiritual. The Holy Bible states clearly that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind and He is the only way of Salvation. He is the bridge between God and Man.

Just because that's what YOU believe in, doesn't make it right, nor does it make it wrong. It's your belief. Every religion has their own belief in what their god is or isn't. That makes it no more, nor less right.

As far as the whole slaves, punishment methods, etc., don't forget that it wasn't just the American Indians, nor just the African tribes. If you follow history, you will find that most civilizations had slaves, or punished crimes with what we now consider to be extreme. There are still some regions that do. We may see what "they" did as brutish or barbaric, but at the time, it was the "norm".

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

In my mind it's not really vague at all. If you read the New testament it documents Jesus' life, death and resurrection. It's at least partially corroborated by secular historians if the period as well.

We have what Jesus asked us to do documented. We have documentation of the first hand accounts of miracles he performed. These things are all known and documented.

I guess the ambiguity is around the validity of the documents?

We can validate pieces through the writings of historian Flavius Josephus. There's tons of books on the subject (e.g. The bible as history). The Church spends millions every year preserving and studying historical documents and artifacts.

Science minded individuals who disregard it as fiction are ignoring their own tenets because of their personal bias.

Im not saying you can absolutely prove anything. I'm saying there's a proponderence of evidence, not just a popular book and people searching for community. It's a leap of faith, but the leap is pretty small for those who have done the research.

 

[vmax]

Just because that's what YOU believe in, doesn't make it right, nor does it make it wrong. It's your belief. Every religion has their own belief in what their god is or isn't. That makes it no more, nor less right.

As far as the whole slaves, punishment methods, etc., don't forget that it wasn't just the American Indians, nor just the African tribes. If you follow history, you will find that most civilizations had slaves, or punished crimes with what we now consider to be extreme. There are still some regions that do. We may see what "they" did as brutish or barbaric, but at the time, it was the "norm".

and that is where we will have to agree to disagree my friend.

 

[just jk]

i havent read any of this thread - could only get thru half the OP

however - for ME......religion and spirituality are not the same thing

i think the OP was asking why I "need" my faith.....it's pretty simple for me, I can choose to believe that great great grandfather was a fish - or that there is some higher power out there - much of which is a mystery

i need faith to believe in 1) the Christian God - Jesus, Holy Spirit, heaven, etc etc.....and 2) the big bang theory, or 3) that there is absolutely no God

i can't prove empirically the existence of God - just as much as I can't disprove it

i believe because I came to that faith on my own personal journey and decision...once I decided to go down that road, i could do so halfheartedly - or "all in"......i chose the latter. "religion" isn't so much about the music, or the fellowship - it's about a relationship with my maker and savior

 

[Sapper740]

Flavius Josephus was from a family of priests who eventually became a Roman citizen and was commissioned to write the Jewish history.

He witnessed the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70AD and his works include "Antiquities of the Jews" and "War of the Jews".

All his works have withstood the scrutiny of history and archeology and corroborate what we read in the Bible as do many of the Dead Sea scrolls, especially those found in Cave 4 which refer to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. (there is a lengthy but fascinating read here about the relevance of the Dead Sea scrolls here: Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries ).

I don't understand those who profess to use science and history to refute Jesus as our lord and Savior when much of it does the opposite.

TA-DA!

 

[ROGER4314]

Interesting topic. If it doesn't get locked up, I might be interested in participating. I will NOT, however attempt to wade through your poorly blocked text. Some of us have vision issues and if you'd rather spew your verbage without having people read or ponder your ideas, you're on the right track.

Flash