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History lesson "Treaty of Tripoli"

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  • texas1willy2

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    I'm not posting this with fueling a debate in mind, I read this quote in an thread earlier today but I didn't post this there because I wanted to leave the thread. I just felt like some of you might want to know this if you are ever confronted with the "America is not a Christian nation" quote. This is kind of long so that will weed out many, it is interesting given some things that are going on right now with muslims and the assault of our Christian heritage.



    The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli is the source of Washington's supposed statement. Is this statement accurate? Did this prominent Founder truly repudiate religion? An answer will be found by an examination of its source. That treaty, one of several with Tripoli, was negotiated during the "Barbary Powers Conflict," which began shortly after the Revolutionary War and continued through the Presidencies of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison. 6 The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States). In 1801, Tripoli even declared war against the United States, 7 thus constituting America's first official war as an established independent nation.

    Throughout this long conflict, the four Barbary Powers regularly attacked undefended American merchant ships. Not only were their cargoes easy prey but the Barbary Powers were also capturing and enslaving "Christian" seamen 8 in retaliation for what had been done to them by the "Christians" of previous centuries (e.g., the Crusades and Ferdinand and Isabella's expulsion of Muslims from Granada 9). In an attempt to secure a release of captured seamen and a guarantee of unmolested shipping in the Mediterranean, President Washington dispatched envoys to negotiate treaties with the Barbary nations. 10 (Concurrently, he encouraged the construction of American naval warships 11 to defend the shipping and confront the Barbary "pirates" – a plan not seriously pursued until President John Adams created a separate Department of the Navy in 1798.)

    The American envoys negotiated numerous treaties of "Peace and Amity" 12 with the Muslim Barbary nations to ensure "protection" of American commercial ships sailing in the Mediterranean. 13 However, the terms of the treaty frequently were unfavorable to America, either requiring her to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars of "tribute" (i.e., official extortion) to each country to receive a "guarantee" of safety or to offer other "considerations" (e.g., providing a warship as a "gift" to Tripoli, 14 a "gift" frigate to Algiers, 15 paying $525,000 to ransom captured American seamen from Algiers, 16 etc. 17). The 1797 treaty with Tripoli was one of the many treaties in which each country officially recognized the religion of the other in an attempt to prevent further escalation of a "Holy War" between Christians and Muslims. 18 Consequently, Article XI of that treaty stated:

    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. 19

    This article may be read in two manners. It may, as its critics do, be concluded after the clause "Christian religion"; or it may be read in its entirety and concluded when the punctuation so indicates. But even if shortened and cut abruptly ("the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"), this is not an untrue statement since it is referring to the federal government.

    Recall that while the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation (demonstrated in chapter 2 of Original Intent), they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal establishment; religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation.

    Reading the clause of the treaty in its entirety also fails to weaken this fact. Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.

    This latter reading is, in fact, supported by the attitude prevalent among numerous American leaders. The Christianity practiced in America was described by John Jay as "wise and virtuous," 20 by John Quincy Adams as "civilized," 21 and by John Adams as "rational." 22 A clear distinction was drawn between American Christianity and that of Europe in earlier centuries. As Noah Webster explained:

    The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it. 23
    Daniel Webster similarly explained that American Christianity was:

    Christianity to which the sword and the fagot [burning stake or hot branding iron] are unknown – general tolerant Christianity is the law of the land! 24
    Those who attribute the Treaty of Tripoli quote to George Washington make two mistakes. The first is that no statement in it can be attributed to Washington (the treaty did not arrive in America until months after he left office); Washington never saw the treaty; it was not his work; no statement in it can be ascribed to him. The second mistake is to divorce a single clause of the treaty from the remainder which provides its context. It would also be absurd to suggest that President Adams (under whom the treaty was ratified in 1797) would have endorsed or assented to any provision which repudiated Christianity. In fact, while discussing the Barbary conflict with Jefferson, Adams declared:

    The policy of Christendom has made cowards of all their sailors before the standard of Mahomet. It would be heroical and glorious in us to restore courage to ours. 25
    Furthermore, it was Adams who declared:

    The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. 26

    Adams' own words confirm that he rejected any notion that America was less than a Christian nation.
     

    TimberWolf7.62

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    I don't really have a dog in this fight, but if you google "founding fathers religious beliefs" you get 169,000 hits, many such as:
    "our founding fathers were not Christians" Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians
    "The Christian Nation Myth" The Christian Nation Myth
    "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion" The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

    This one Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997 which directly refutes your posting RE: the Treaty of Triploi

    Wikipedia states "Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. " Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Encyclopaedia Britannica notes that "In recent decades Christian advocacy groups, prompted by motives that have been questioned by some, have felt a powerful urge to enlist the Founding Fathers in their respective congregations. But recovering the spiritual convictions of the Founders, in all their messy integrity, is not an easy task. Once again, diversity is the dominant pattern. Franklin and Jefferson were deists, Washington harbored a pantheistic sense of providential destiny, John Adams began a Congregationalist and ended a Unitarian, Hamilton was a lukewarm Anglican for most of his life but embraced a more actively Christian posture after his son died in a duel." The U.S. Founding Fathers: Their Religious Beliefs | Britannica Blog


    Personally, I support a laissez faire situation, in which you can feel free to believe anything you want, no matter how hare-brained, just keep it to yourself.
     

    Texan2

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    you can feel free to believe anything you want, no matter how hare-brained, just keep it to yourself.
    I thought the Constitution allowed FREEDOM of religion? Why do I have to keep it to myself?
    This debate is somewhat ridiculus. The Constitution restricts the Federal govt from creating an official religion...that is it. revisionist historians try to make it into something else.
     

    texas1willy2

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    If you're really interested you should read what I posted....I'll highlight it, the link you pulled in no way refutes my posting.

    As far as keep it to yourself you do realize this is OUR history right?

    Look I don't want to argue about this however, I do find the revisionist history frustrating.

    I've got quotes from the founding fathers that I can post from here to Sunday (pun intended) that will back up every claim I've made.
    What I'll do is wait and see what the mods have to say about the direction this thread has taken.
     

    Texan2

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    If you're really interested you should read what I posted....I'll highlight it, the link you pulled in no way refutes my posting.

    As far as keep it to yourself you do realize this is OUR history right?

    Look I don't want to argue about this however, I do find the revisionist history frustrating.

    I've got quotes from the founding fathers that I can post from here to Sunday (pun intended) that will back up every claim I've made.
    What I'll do is wait and see what the mods have to say about the direction this thread has taken.
    Who is this directed at? I think I agree with everything you posted.
     

    Texan2

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    It does, but freedom of religion is not freedom to push yours on me.
    Actually it is freedom to do exactly that. If you arent interested you can decline and we can both move on but Americans are free to preach to anyone who will listen.
    (That having been said, its not my bag to do so, just pointing out we are free to do so if we choose)
     

    texas1willy2

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    I'm not. Hence my beginning my post with "I don't have a dog in this fight". If you want to debate religion, why aren't you debating in a religion-based forum?

    I'm sorry if I've been unclear, I'm not trying to debate religion. I'm just pointing out some historical facts, if they bother you so much why don't you step out of the thread.

    I double checked, this is the politics section.
     

    Clockwork

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    Not this **** again.

    Look, the fact of the matter is that Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,” and Adams himself signed it whatever else he may or may not have said.

    What I DIDN'T mention in that previous ill-fated topic was that the U.S. Senate unanimously ratified the treaty and it went into legal effect on the 10th of June, 1797. This is really not a topic that is open for debate.

    Since you like quoting John Adams, here's another one concerning your little "history lesson":

    John Adams on the Treaty of Tripoli said:
    Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.

    Why does it bother you if the United States is not a "Christian Nation"? It doesn't stop anyone from practicing their religion.
     

    texas1willy2

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    John Adams
    Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

    t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

    (Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

    [W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    (Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

    The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

    (Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

    John Quincy Adams

    Sixth President of the United States

    The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.

    (Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)

    There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

    (Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)

    Samuel Adams

    Signer of the Declaration of Independence

    [N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

    (Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams (Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

    Fisher Ames

    Framer of the First Amendment

    Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.

    (Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

    Charles Carroll of Carrollton

    Signer of the Declaration of Independence

    Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

    (Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

    Oliver Ellsworth

    Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court

    [T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion.

    (Source: Connecticut Courant, June 7, 1802, p. 3, Oliver Ellsworth, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut)
     

    texas1willy2

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    Benjamin Franklin

    Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

    [O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

    (Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787. )

    I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

    I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

    (Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)

    * For more details on this quote, click here.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States

    Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

    (Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, DC: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 5, pp. 82-83, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr on August 19, 1785.)

    The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.

    (Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)

    I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.

    (Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)

    Richard Henry Lee

    Signer of the Declaration of Independence

    It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

    (Source: Richard Henry Lee, The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

    James McHenry

    Signer of the Constitution

    [P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

    (Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)

    Jedediah Morse

    Patriot and "Father of American Geography"

    To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

    (Source: Jedidiah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1799), p. 9.)

    William Penn

    Founder of Pennsylvania

    t is impossible that any people of government should ever prosper, where men render not unto God, that which is God's, as well as to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

    (Source: Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania, 1682. Written by William Penn, founder of the colony of Pennsylvania.)

    Pennsylvania Supreme Court

    No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.

    (Source: Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1824).)

    Benjamin Rush

    Signer of the Declaration of Independence

    The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

    (Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)

    We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

    (Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)

    By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 1:18]

    (Source: Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)

    Remember that national crimes require national punishments, and without declaring what punishment awaits this evil, you may venture to assure them that it cannot pass with impunity, unless God shall cease to be just or merciful.

    (Source: Benjamin Rush, An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America Upon Slave-Keeping (Boston: John Boyles, 1773), p. 30.)
     

    texas1willy2

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    Joseph Story

    Supreme Court Justice

    Indeed, the right of a society or government to [participate] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state and indispensable to the administrations of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion—the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to Him for all our actions, founded upon moral accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues—these never can be a matter of indifference in any well-ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive how any civilized society can well exist without them.

    (Source: Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1847), p. 260, §442.)

    George Washington

    "Father of Our Country"

    While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

    (Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

    And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

    (Source: George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)

    [T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.

    (Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)

    * For the full text of Geo. Washington's Farewell Address, click here.

    Daniel Webster

    Early American Jurist and Senator

    f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity.

    (Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. XIII, p. 492. From "The Dignity and Importance of History," February 23, 1852.)

    Noah Webster

    Founding Educator

    The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.

    (Source: Noah Webster, History of the United States, "Advice to the Young" (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 338-340, par. 51, 53, 56.)

    James Wilson

    Signer of the Constitution

    Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both.

    (Source: James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)

    Robert Winthrop

    Former Speaker of the US House of Representatives

    Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

    (Source: Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")
     

    Clockwork

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    tl;dr

    Anyway, all this eye-bleeding copypasta aside, religion is (generally) a fine foundation for a moral compass but that doesn't mean that the United States has established a state religion. These quotes have not one thing to do with the fact that it was signed into law that the United States does not have a state religion.
     

    texas1willy2

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    tl;dr

    Anyway, all this eye-bleeding copypasta aside, religion is (generally) a fine foundation for a moral compass but that doesn't mean that the United States has established a state religion. These quotes have not one thing to do with the fact that it was signed into law that the United States does not have a state religion.
    Our government/founding fathers very clearly stated that there was to be no state sponsored religion, but this nation was clearly founded on Christian principles. Since that was too much for you to read I'll give you the cliffs, those are multiable quotes from most all of the founding fathers.
    Each one stating the significance of God and the bible in their lives personally as well as it's role in the formation of this nation.

    Incidentally I have plenty more if anyone needs them.
     

    Clockwork

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    Our government/founding fathers very clearly stated that there was to be no state sponsored religion, but this nation was clearly founded on Christian principles. Since that was too much for you to read I'll give you the cliffs, those are multiable quotes from most all of the founding fathers.
    Each one stating the significance of God and the bible in their lives personally as well as it's role in the formation of this nation.

    Incidentally I have plenty more if anyone needs them.

    Soooo, exactly what point are you trying to argue here? Yes, most of the founding fathers were men of faith. No, there is no state religion. I don't see where you're going with this.
     

    texas1willy2

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    Just clearing up misconceptions an misinformation that all, this was your post just before you decided not to read my founding fathers quotes.

    "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,”

    Now here is your next quote after not reading any of the for mentioned information:

    Yes, most of the founding fathers were men of faith

    See how easy this is?

    Look Clockwork you're cool with me, I hope I'm not causing you any problems, I've had spent plenty of time on both sides of this fence.

    I didn't start this thread to argue anything, I would like to say this.....The voice of God is not that much different that the voice that drags you into these types of exchanges. Different message, same small voice listen close.
     

    Clockwork

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    Just clearing up misconceptions an misinformation that all, this was your post just before you decided not to read my founding fathers quotes.

    Okay, I can see there would be some confusion coming from those quotes but the framers being men of faith doesn't mean that their intent was to make the United States a Christian nation. They specifically stated otherwise and signed it into law. Their belief in God, a specific God, does not mean that they felt it best to declare their faith to be the national religion though it is the vast majority in the U.S. to this date. Their faith has nothing to do with whether or not there is a state religion, which is the point I'm making and the repeated message I get from you is "they are men of faith, they are men of faith, they are men of faith" which obviously I get, I never said otherwise. Merely that they also declared that there is no state religion.

    Look Clockwork you're cool with me, I hope I'm not causing you any problems, I've had spent plenty of time on both sides of this fence.

    No, no problems. I just think we're having some kind of disconnect trying to communicate a message back and forth here. :)
     
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