IRS working with atheist group to monitor church sermons

[Sapper740]

IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Sermons And Homilies - Investors.com

For my Christian brothers here...get ready.

Revelation 2:8-11[h=1][/h]

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Agreed.

However, no one has come up with a decent plan to migrate federal spending to this source of funds. To maintain current levels, the national VAT would, despite what some snake oil salesmen would have you believe, exceed 30%. We'd also get a federal-level bloodbath of dirty politics when it comes to deciding what gets taxed or what gets taxed and rebated. National sales taxes are generally simpler than progressive income taxes but they can still be surprisingly complex. And, hoo boy, the number of shell corps that that would be set up to facilitate transfers of assets via any method other than a taxed sale would explode; there would be millions of new ones, overnight.

For national-scope expenditures to be funded via sales tax the transition is impossible unless those expenditures are first cut to a manageable level. Most functions would need to be returned to state control and the size of the federal government radically reduced.

I'm in favor of starting down that path but I don't see anyone making any notable progress in that direction.

Returning to the original subject of the thread - I wonder how the principle of not establishing a state religion would survive under a government where power is radically shifted to the individual states? My guess is that in some states, sharia law would officially take hold. In others, they'd start burning witches at the stake again.

And that's only a mild exaggeration.

Still, it would be an interesting experiment.

1) First thing to be done is to look at Texas and Fl, they do it, they do it with much success, no need to reinvent wheels on this puppy its already in the hunt.

2) Phase it in over ___________ years doing revenue netural ( year phase in would be a 20% shift each year/

3) 30% VAT ok, a little bit high IMO but lets go with that as the magic number. If ANYONE thinks they are paying less than 30% today they are smoking on the free lunch program somewhere. Out tax burden is staggering on the American people and Income taxes are just a part of it. Look at any telepnone bill, or other utility bill, go buy some tires, jewlery and the taxes buried in cars and corp tax rate adds up to a total tax burden on the America people of well over 50%. They say I don't pay taxes on my SS income...the HELL I don't!

ANYWAY you view it a 30% VAT would be a bargain for the people.

4) Beating Income tax is easy and done all over the US. One I lived in Miami I bought my home from the guy who owned the Real Estate company. I was new down there and over coffee we got to talking about high end home $1 Mi++. I nearly fell out of my chair when he told me over half of all homes sold Dade county that cost over $1M++ were all cash and he meant all greenbacks. He hated the closings. You set in a room, waiting on the Armored truck to pull up. Then the bags of $20's and $100's begin coming in in bags. Now you have a table full of greenbacks and you need to count them to cover a $3.75M buck deal.

DRUG MONEY! This goes on acorss the US and in fact our hidden, underground economy is estimated at from $500 B to $1 Trillion.

FACT we do not capture the underground income. But the states that have a VAT/sales tax do!

Get rid of the IRS and its regulations. REMOVE completely the taxes on incs. In fact Inc's do not pay taxes, they only build the burden into the pricing, I know all to well I own a company now and have owned others in the past.

5) No, none of the above will ever happen as it has NOTHING to do with revenue to the govt, what it has to do with is CONTROL and VAT does not give the govt control over the people.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

So YES the IRS is crawling into the socks of churches and there is a reason for it. So as the govt can control the message.

What we have going on is a transfer of of worship of a divine being. In order for a dictatorship to work the govt MUST take God off the table. The govt must force you the individual to believe that its the govt that takes care of you. Not the God, not the Church, not your friends but the govt. Hence the comprehensive welfar programs which incule food, utilities, transportation, spending money, shelter, cell fones, now POT for the poor, bicycles for the kids 12 and under.

The church gives you self reliance and the belief that God is divine and will help those who help themselves. Govt does not want that, the govt will provide. Then you begin see the govt and its leader as the messiah, the granter of rights, not God. Under a dictator ship there are NO inalienable rights, ALL rights begin and end with the state and the supreme leader. Obama!

 

[Sapper740]

So YES the IRS is crawling into the socks of churches and there is a reason for it. So as the govt can control the message.

What we have going on is a transfer of of worship of a divine being. In order for a dictatorship to work the govt MUST take God off the table. The govt must force you the individual to believe that its the govt that takes care of you. Not the God, not the Church, not your friends but the govt. Hence the comprehensive welfar programs which incule food, utilities, transportation, spending money, shelter, cell fones, now POT for the poor, bicycles for the kids 12 and under.

The church gives you self reliance and the belief that God is divine and will help those who help themselves. Govt does not want that, the govt will provide. Then you begin see the govt and its leader as the messiah, the granter of rights, not God. Under a dictator ship there are NO inalienable rights, ALL rights begin and end with the state and the supreme leader. Obama!

The Barack Obama Song

Who is our 44th President?
Obama is our 44th President
Who is a DC resident?
Obama is a DC resident
Resident, President
Who’s favorite team is the Chicago White Sox?
Obama’s favorite team is the Chicago White sox
Who really thinks outside the box?
Obama really thinks outside the box
Outside the box, Chicago White Sos
Resident, President
Who really likes to play basketball?
Obama really likes to play basketball
Who’s gonna answer our every call?
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
Who’s famous slogan is Yes we can?
Obams’s famous slogan is Yes we can
Who do we know is the man?
Barack Obama is the man
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketvall
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
Who won a grammy for “Dreams of my Father”?
Obama won a grammy for “Dreams of my Father”?
Now can you guess who’s a famous author
Barack Obama is a famous author
Famous Author, Dreams of my Father
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box. Chicago White Sox
Resident President
Who wants to go to college at Yale?
Malia & Sasha will go to college at Yale
Who’ll make sure they won’t fail?
Barack & Michelle know they won’t fail
They won’t fail, they’re going to Yale
Famous Author, Dream of my Father
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
​

 

[Sapper740]

The Barack Obama Song

Who is our 44th President?
Obama is our 44th President
Who is a DC resident?
Obama is a DC resident
Resident, President
Who’s favorite team is the Chicago White Sox?
Obama’s favorite team is the Chicago White sox
Who really thinks outside the box?
Obama really thinks outside the box
Outside the box, Chicago White Sos
Resident, President
Who really likes to play basketball?
Obama really likes to play basketball
Who’s gonna answer our every call?
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
Who’s famous slogan is Yes we can?
Obams’s famous slogan is Yes we can
Who do we know is the man?
Barack Obama is the man
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketvall
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
Who won a grammy for “Dreams of my Father”?
Obama won a grammy for “Dreams of my Father”?
Now can you guess who’s a famous author
Barack Obama is a famous author
Famous Author, Dreams of my Father
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box. Chicago White Sox
Resident President
Who wants to go to college at Yale?
Malia & Sasha will go to college at Yale
Who’ll make sure they won’t fail?
Barack & Michelle know they won’t fail
They won’t fail, they’re going to Yale
Famous Author, Dream of my Father
He’s our man, Yes we can!
Every Call, Basketball
Outside the box, Chicago White Sox
Resident, President
​

Fucking scary!

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Lets review: Obama

Nobel Peace Prize: Check
Grammy Award: Check
Emmy Award: Nominated, expected to win Check

I will say without hesitation:

There is NOTHING Obama can do while in office to cause him to be impeached, NOTHING and I take NOTHING off the table. Murder, not a problem, drug use on TV during a press conf, he snorts a few rails, not a problem, theft of $10 Million+++ of government money put into his personal account, not a problem, he gives Jay Carney a blow job in a press conf, not a problem. Leaves a US active duty Marine to rot in a Mexican jail, not a problem, watches from the war room in the WH as Americans die in a foreign embassy, not a problem, send the IRS to investigate the Tea Party, not a problem...decides to remain in office for a 3rd term, tells his followers to write in his name for POTUS, he remains in office, not a problem.

Take away, NOTHING he can do will ever be a problem.

Of the worlds dictators, about 48, most have been elected, most call themselves President.

Tranfer of higher power from God to Obama: Check

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I suppose so.

The problems with transitioning to that are pretty profound, though. I still maintain that moving functions to the states (to kill or fund as they see fit) with the concomitant massive reduction of the federal government (that should result) is a necessary precursor to successful implementation.

And that's if I grant that it's a worthy goal...which I'm on the fence about.

Yep, would be a long slow transition to be successful. Couldn't just pull the plug.

I'm not on the fence - lol

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Churches were never intended to pay taxes, 501(c)(3) or not, and that has only been around for churches for 50 years or so. The tax code has been used to define what a church is in government terms, or basically subsume churches under its sphere of influence, talk about a violation of separation of church and state.

Trying to censor political speech is a violation of the First Amendment. I'm looking for a church that takes more of an open political stance at the moment.


The 501(c)(3) is garbage and I refuse to be a part of a church that has that status.

 

[TheDan]

So I wonder if all those churches that have Dem candidates come and make campaign speeches will get their status pulled?

Didn't think so.

Exactly. Regulations are used to punish the political enemies of whoever is in power. Their political friends get turned a blind eye, or even more blatantly granted a "waiver."

For national-scope expenditures to be funded via sales tax the transition is impossible unless those expenditures are first cut to a manageable level. Most functions would need to be returned to state control and the size of the federal government radically reduced.

Yeah that's the point, lol...

The IRS isn't needs if they collect revenues directly from ye states and end apportionment and Federal social programs.

I think I read about that in some old document no one pays attention to anymore

 

[Mike1234567]

The FED is the King's Mask and the IRS is his ring of thugs.

 

[benenglish]

You make lots of good points. However, this part has me puzzled.

Beating Income tax is easy and done all over the US. One I lived in Miami I bought my home from the guy who owned the Real Estate company. I was new down there and over coffee we got to talking about high end home $1 Mi++. I nearly fell out of my chair when he told me over half of all homes sold Dade county that cost over $1M++ were all cash and he meant all greenbacks. He hated the closings. You set in a room, waiting on the Armored truck to pull up. Then the bags of $20's and $100's begin coming in in bags. Now you have a table full of greenbacks and you need to count them to cover a $3.75M buck deal.

DRUG MONEY! This goes on acorss the US and in fact our hidden, underground economy is estimated at from $500 B to $1 Trillion.

FACT we do not capture the underground income. But the states that have a VAT/sales tax do!

It's true that beating income tax is easy in some ways. Home improvements, paid for with cash, are a time-honored way of concealing income. You would be surprised at some of the palatial interiors of homes sitting in the middle of junk yards, looking like crap on the outside.

It's curious, though, that you'd cite cash payments for real estate and then somehow conclude that capturing underground income is done better by states via sales tax.

You do realize that Texas does not charge sales tax on real estate, right?

If we went to a sales tax model, we'd go through the same battles as everywhere else that it's happened. Should realty be taxed? Only taxed above a certain threshold? How about medicine? Basic foodstuffs?

If the sales tax in Texas jumps to over 30%, then you better believe the lobbyists will descend en mass on Austin to get an exception carved out in their industry for "humanitarian" or "security" or other concerns.

It'll be a mess. It might be less of a mess than we currently have but it'll still be a mess. It'll also be the most regressive mess I can imagine, much more severely impacting the poor than the rich.

For the record, I'm more of a flat-tax guy. Note I said "more of", not "purely".

 

[benenglish]

Once again, of course it's all about attacking Christians and Conservatives via one arm of the federal government or another.

I disagree. I think it's more about freedom vs authoritarianism. There are plenty of people who'd love to be King and they come from all strata of politics and religion.

I side with whoever it was who said that anyone who actually seeks a national public office is obviously psychologically unsuited to hold such a job.

Maybe we should form a "Freedom from Public School Left-Wing Indoctrination" group and sue the IRS to remove the tax exempt status of school districts that force students to sing The Obama Song?

Go for it. There are TEGE and EP/EO (Employee Plan and Exempt Organizations) Revenue Agents who would love to sink their teeth into something like that.

 

[benenglish]

The tax code has been used to define what a church is in government terms, or basically subsume churches under its sphere of influence, talk about a violation of separation of church and state.

In a broad sense, this may be the most insightful sentence in the thread thus far.

Churches were never intended to pay taxes, ...

Huh? By whom and over what period of history?

Over the long haul of history, churches have paid taxes, levied taxes, collected taxes, run governments, started wars, fielded their own armies, and done lots of other stuff that we think today should be outside their purview.

I don't accept that "Churches were never intended to pay taxes" as a long-term absolute. It's sorta the way we've done things in this country for a long while but it's nothing engraved on tablets by the finger of God. In fact, much of this thread is made up of people talking about how tax exemptions for churches get perverted to goals that work against those churches.

 

[benenglish]

I want to apologize for getting people stirred up. I just think all governments derive their political power out of the barrel of a gun, they all have their thugs, and that getting worked up about the IRS is kind of a waste of energy. Generally, I hope it is clear, I'm pretty much in agreement with what I'm hearing.

However, if you shoot me a straight line like this one, I can't resist:

I think I read about that in some old document no one pays attention to anymore

Yeah. No one pays any attention to that old document because it didn't work. It was called the "Articles of Confederation".

In all seriousness, some centralized taxation isn't inherently evil and, without it, the nation could not exist. Once our Founding Fathers realized that almost totally decentralized government (and taxation) didn't work, the Articles were tossed and the Constitution written. Under the Articles, the federal government couldn't tax anything and had to ask the states for all their money. That money simply didn't get sent in. It was a major failure (some say the major failure) of the Articles. When the Constitution was written, Congress was explicitly given power to "lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises."

This was a major improvement over the old "collect revenues directly from ye states" model. It meant the Army could actually pay troops, for example.

I say we shouldn't bother about abolishing the IRS. That's just a sound bite and we should be thinking deeper. We should work to make it unnecessary via real reductions of federal government authoritarianism. If we're successful in that endeavor, we'll be directing our limited political action resources toward what's really important. That the IRS will wind up irrelevant will simply be a long-term side benefit.

I'm sorry I derailed this thread so badly. I only came in to say that the OP-cited article was little more than clickbait; the IRS doesn't sit in on services and take notes on sermon content. I still stand by that.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I think downsizing of government is implied when folks post about abolishing the IRS. Not sure it's deeper thinking or a derail.

I'm cool with your posts. Lots of details get lost trying to be brief online. Would be a better discussion over campfire and drinks!

 

[benenglish]

Lots of details get lost trying to be brief online.

When have I ever tried to be brief online?

Would be a better discussion over campfire and drinks!

Profound truth, that is.

 

[Sapper740]

I disagree. I think it's more about freedom vs authoritarianism.

In theory, yes. In practice I think we all know who will be the beneficiary of the IRS's attention.

 

[Mike1234567]

It's data collection, of course, so it can be skewed to their advantage. There's simply too much money in religious organizations for them to pass up. They'll find a way into their pockets. Don't get me wrong... there are more than plenty of abuses within many churches. But the IRS is pure evil and has no place in the religious community.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

It's data collection, of course, so it can be skewed to their advantage. There's simply too much money in religious organizations for them to pass up. They'll find a way into their pockets. Don't get me wrong... there are more than plenty of abuses within many churches. But the IRS is pure evil and has no place in the religious community.

My church watches like a hawk. We just fired the Rector for spending money that was for the church and using it for his personal business. It was not much money, and my church is world wide...he is gone!

What I find MOST appalling is the what the title sez: "IRS working with atheist group to monitor church sermons"

WTF WHY does and would the IRS 'work with' an atheist group. This is WRONG and stright out of the pages of Hitlers rise to power..

 

[benenglish]

What I find MOST appalling is the what the title sez: "IRS working with atheist group to monitor church sermons"

WTF WHY does and would the IRS 'work with' an atheist group.

I find the title appalling, too...because it's completely inaccurate. The IRS isn't "working with" atheists. They got sued by some atheists for not doing their job and they agreed to try to do better, resulting in the suit going away.

In what world is "got sued by" the equivalent of "working with"?