Is the defense shortgun still relevant?

[Low_Speed94]

I would say well not ideal a 12 gauge shotgun is very easy to train someone to use and there is a minimum of set up and supporting gear and it’s Probably the most reliable low cost weapon

when I went to college I was head of my local university students for concealed carry and dealing with people with break-ins I had have several people ask me what firearm to use and to have me teach them how to use it with a budget of $250-400 (this was 2013-17 btw)

With a pump shotgun the manual of arms is fairly intuitive to teach someone and at home defense distances using a bead sight again it’s pretty intuitive as well because there is only one focal plane to focus on. Within an afternoon and 100 rounds of bird shot I could get someone halfway competent especially if they took some of the time to dry practice.

With someone who is new to guns on an AR ( Or to a lesser extent an AK) just the concept of buying a good optic mounting it , and then getting a good zero can be daunting. And then you have the issue of learning to manipulate the safety and the charging handle ensuring your magazine is fully seated and ammunition selection. There is a lot more time in setting up the gun and training and cost outside of just the purchase of a defensive rifle that a lot of people aren’t really going to follow through on who are not dedicated shooters

Sure I wouldn’t teach people to reload under pressure but with the pump shotgun there was no sites to buy or zero there was no magazines to buy you could use it pretty effectively out of the box with a minimum of maintenance and even the cheapes buck shot you could find for defense inside the home it would be fairly devastating.

The other thing is many of the people that I took out to buy defense of shotguns with got the sporting barrels and ended up shooting clays or hunting which is also nice.


So the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tooso the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tool That will Work very well for most people inside of the United States

 

[leVieux]

I would say well not ideal a 12 gauge shotgun is very easy to train someone to use and there is a minimum of set up and supporting gear and it’s Probably the most reliable low cost weapon

when I went to college I was head of my local university students for concealed carry and dealing with people with break-ins I had have several people ask me what firearm to use and to have me teach them how to use it with a budget of $250-400 (this was 2013-17 btw)

With a pump shotgun the manual of arms is fairly intuitive to teach someone and at home defense distances using a bead sight again it’s pretty intuitive as well because there is only one focal plane to focus on. Within an afternoon and 100 rounds of bird shot I could get someone halfway competent especially if they took some of the time to dry practice.

With someone who is new to guns on an AR ( Or to a lesser extent an AK) just the concept of buying a good optic mounting it , and then getting a good zero can be daunting. And then you have the issue of learning to manipulate the safety and the charging handle ensuring your magazine is fully seated and ammunition selection. There is a lot more time in setting up the gun and training and cost outside of just the purchase of a defensive rifle that a lot of people aren’t really going to follow through on who are not dedicated shooters

Sure I wouldn’t teach people to reload under pressure but with the pump shotgun there was no sites to buy or zero there was no magazines to buy you could use it pretty effectively out of the box with a minimum of maintenance and even the cheapes buck shot you could find for defense inside the home it would be fairly devastating.

The other thing is many of the people that I took out to buy defense of shotguns with got the sporting barrels and ended up shooting clays or hunting which is also nice.


So the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tooso the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tool That will Work very well for most people inside of the United States

I agree 99% and would like to give my reasons:

During my 77+ years on Earth, I have run hundreds of thousands rounds through shotguns, over half from pump-guns. I was a Captain in the US Army when we got the "Stoner's", which is what AR's were then known as. I have had minor "training" on AR's several times, including by U S Military & Police Instructors. Have owned an AR15 almost 20 years now.

I still am not comfortable with the AR, despite the above.

If I can hit a flushing quail with my 870, a home invader at 15' should be easy. If the 8 rounds of 00 won't stop the threat, it is likely hopeless.

leVieux

 

[oldag]

I would say well not ideal a 12 gauge shotgun is very easy to train someone to use and there is a minimum of set up and supporting gear and it’s Probably the most reliable low cost weapon

when I went to college I was head of my local university students for concealed carry and dealing with people with break-ins I had have several people ask me what firearm to use and to have me teach them how to use it with a budget of $250-400 (this was 2013-17 btw)

With a pump shotgun the manual of arms is fairly intuitive to teach someone and at home defense distances using a bead sight again it’s pretty intuitive as well because there is only one focal plane to focus on. Within an afternoon and 100 rounds of bird shot I could get someone halfway competent especially if they took some of the time to dry practice.

With someone who is new to guns on an AR ( Or to a lesser extent an AK) just the concept of buying a good optic mounting it , and then getting a good zero can be daunting. And then you have the issue of learning to manipulate the safety and the charging handle ensuring your magazine is fully seated and ammunition selection. There is a lot more time in setting up the gun and training and cost outside of just the purchase of a defensive rifle that a lot of people aren’t really going to follow through on who are not dedicated shooters

Sure I wouldn’t teach people to reload under pressure but with the pump shotgun there was no sites to buy or zero there was no magazines to buy you could use it pretty effectively out of the box with a minimum of maintenance and even the cheapes buck shot you could find for defense inside the home it would be fairly devastating.

The other thing is many of the people that I took out to buy defense of shotguns with got the sporting barrels and ended up shooting clays or hunting which is also nice.


So the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tooso the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tool That will Work very well for most people inside of the United States

Methinks you are overthinking this.

At the short range of a typical home defense encounter, sighting is not critical nor are fast mag changes.

Not everyone will operate the pump slide properly under pressure.

Shotgun is fine, but for home defense there is nothing wrong with a handgun.

 

[seeker_two]

I would say well not ideal a 12 gauge shotgun is very easy to train someone to use and there is a minimum of set up and supporting gear and it’s Probably the most reliable low cost weapon

when I went to college I was head of my local university students for concealed carry and dealing with people with break-ins I had have several people ask me what firearm to use and to have me teach them how to use it with a budget of $250-400 (this was 2013-17 btw)

With a pump shotgun the manual of arms is fairly intuitive to teach someone and at home defense distances using a bead sight again it’s pretty intuitive as well because there is only one focal plane to focus on. Within an afternoon and 100 rounds of bird shot I could get someone halfway competent especially if they took some of the time to dry practice.

With someone who is new to guns on an AR ( Or to a lesser extent an AK) just the concept of buying a good optic mounting it , and then getting a good zero can be daunting. And then you have the issue of learning to manipulate the safety and the charging handle ensuring your magazine is fully seated and ammunition selection. There is a lot more time in setting up the gun and training and cost outside of just the purchase of a defensive rifle that a lot of people aren’t really going to follow through on who are not dedicated shooters

Sure I wouldn’t teach people to reload under pressure but with the pump shotgun there was no sites to buy or zero there was no magazines to buy you could use it pretty effectively out of the box with a minimum of maintenance and even the cheapes buck shot you could find for defense inside the home it would be fairly devastating.

The other thing is many of the people that I took out to buy defense of shotguns with got the sporting barrels and ended up shooting clays or hunting which is also nice.


So the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tooso the shotgun in my mind as a defensive tool is maybe not the most efficient but is a low-cost general purpose every man’s tool That will Work very well for most people inside of the United States

Wholeheartedly agree. Only thing I would add is including the 20ga and .410 in the lineup. Both are good for recoil-sensitive users, and both are effective at HD ranges with the appropriate loads. I really like the Federal Handgun .410 000Buck load in a full-size shotgun.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[SW Guy]

Who knows in this crazy world we live in today whether it would be needed or not, GOD forbid. I would rather have one than not...

 

[leVieux]

I have fended-off street criminal attacks 4 times over 40 years living in large cities. Was armed but didn't draw for 3; unarmed for one.

An old Friend was murdered in a crminal home invasion a few years ago, By pure happenstance, our Son, who is a Police Detective in a city some 45 or 50 miles from the crime, was the first to recognize that a serious crime had been committed. Attack was daytime in a small town. Armed invaders beat Friend to death b/c they didn't want the noise of a gunshot.

On learning the details of Friend's death, I set up all sorts of hidden defenses in our rural home. Those defenses are both passive and active.

One cannot stop a SWAT Team, but routine thugs should be stoppable IF RECOGNIZED IN TIME.

We live in a dangerous World.

Take care,
leVieux

 

[London]

Methinks you are overthinking this.

At the short range of a typical home defense encounter, sighting is not critical nor are fast mag changes.

Not everyone will operate the pump slide properly under pressure.

Shotgun is fine, but for home defense there is nothing wrong with a handgun.

At arm's length from an attacker, with a pistol pulled against your hip, two inches of deviation left or right can cause a miss. Sighting is absolutely critical, especially with a handgun. Long arms are for home defense. Pistols are for carry.

 

[Axxe55]

At arm's length from an attacker, with a pistol pulled against your hip, two inches of deviation left or right can cause a miss. Sighting is absolutely critical, especially with a handgun. Long arms are for home defense. Pistols are for carry.

Ever heard of practicing "instinctive shooting", when you may not be able to use the sights, or extend you arm to fire the pistol?

An up close and personal violent attack, is nothing like shooting a pistol at the gun range at a paper target that doesn't fight back.

 

[Saltyag2010]

If I only had to have 1 gun it would be a shotgun. Best thing for birds, better than a handgun for deer, effective for home defense.

it’s not my go to anymore for home defense.

 

[satx78247]

I agree 99% and would like to give my reasons:

During my 77+ years on Earth, I have run hundreds of thousands rounds through shotguns, over half from pump-guns. I was a Captain in the US Army when we got the "Stoner's", which is what AR's were then known as. I have had minor "training" on AR's several times, including by U S Military & Police Instructors. Have owned an AR15 almost 20 years now.

I still am not comfortable with the AR, despite the above.

If I can hit a flushing quail with my 870, a home invader at 15' should be easy. If the 8 rounds of 00 won't stop the threat, it is likely hopeless.

leVieux

leVieux,

As my friends KNOW, I have NEVER liked/trusted the AR15/M16/M4 rifles/carbines & when I was in command of the 94TH MP Detachment in USAREUR I "issued myself" an ITHACA Model 37 RIOT-GUN & a "commercial contract" S&W .38SPL revolver.
(That period was between when the Model 1911A1 was "going out" & the M9 was so new that our MP BN had received NONE. = What few Model 1911A1 pistols that we had & that were "serviceable" were issued to our "road units". - Admin personnel, NCOs in the grade of E6 & above & all 4 of our WO/Commissioned personnel got .38SPL revolvers by COLT or S&W.)

yours, satx

 

[SW Guy]

.357 in the night stand for intruders.

HD 7+1 shotgun in the safe with 200 rounds of low recoil 00 in the event of civil unrest.

beer in the refrigerator in case I get thirsty!

 

[London]

Ever heard of practicing "instinctive shooting", when you may not be able to use the sights, or extend you arm to fire the pistol?

An up close and personal violent attack, is nothing like shooting a pistol at the gun range at a paper target that doesn't fight back.

Ever hear of manslaughter or criminal negligence? Accidentally shoot the nighbor because you didn't aim and you will. You are advocating a technique that was abandoned many decades ago.

 

[jrbfishn]

Ever hear of manslaughter or criminal negligence? Accidentally shoot the nighbor because you didn't aim and you will. You are advocating a technique that was abandoned many decades ago.

You are wrong.
If you are close enough that you can't extend your arm, how are going to use the sights? At that range, they are attacking and on you before you can get the sights to eye level let alone acquire a sight picture.
Instinctive shooting is not hard to learn. And is more accurate at close range than people think.
IF done properly.

Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[Axxe55]

Ever hear of manslaughter or criminal negligence? Accidentally shoot the nighbor because you didn't aim and you will. You are advocating a technique that was abandoned many decades ago.

And I'll counter with if a person hasn't practiced enough, that they can't hit a target at one to three feet away, and hit a neighbor, maybe they shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place and deserve to be charged with manslaughter or criminal negligence.

It still comes down to properly practicing the technique and another tool for self defense. I'm advocating a method I know works, if it's practiced.

 

[Nightwatch]

I taught my sons to put a 5 gallon bucket on its side on the head of the bed, then stand at the foot of the bed with the pellet pistol held below their rib cage, and they put every shot IN the bucket. The youngest was 8 at the time...the others10-12. Hand/eye coordination is capable of that, with practice. In a close-range attack, you can neither always use the sights on a handgun OR a long gun.
That doesn't pooh-pooh our responsibility for every bullet or buckshot that we fire, but if the point and shoot method has been "abandoned many decades ago", then I and many LEO trainers and most LEOS I have known missed that memo.

Here's a few mentioned still training shooting without using the sights in 2017...amazing. https://gunculture2point0.wordpress...ovement-in-gabe-suarezs-new-modern-technique/

I think we should consider carefully every situation we can imagine finding ourselves in, then having at least one effective way of handling them all. No method ALWAYS works...and most methods SOMETIMES work...

 

[cycleguy2300]

Ever hear of manslaughter or criminal negligence? Accidentally shoot the nighbor because you didn't aim and you will. You are advocating a technique that was abandoned many decades ago.

As police, we are still trained to fire from pos 2 and 3, where you can't even see the sights...

There are times and places for it, but you are responsible for every round you fire.

Sent from your mom's house using Tapatalk

 

[satx78247]

To ALL,

According to a joint study done by FBI, BATFE, US Marshal's SERVICE & NCIS, the AVERAGE GUNFIGHT WHERE ANYONE IS HIT (Much less dies) is about TWO METERS or about 6.5 FEET.
(That is WHY a LOT of LE agencies spend considerable time with their officers practicing from the 3M line.)

yours satx

 

[London]

You are wrong.
If you are close enough that you can't extend your arm, how are going to use the sights? At that range, they are attacking and on you before you can get the sights to eye level let alone acquire a sight picture.
Instinctive shooting is not hard to learn. And is more accurate at close range than people think.
IF done properly.

Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

That isn't instinctive shooting. That's touching the target with the muzzle.

 

[London]

And I'll counter with if a person hasn't practiced enough, that they can't hit a target at one to three feet away, and hit a neighbor, maybe they shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place and deserve to be charged with manslaughter or criminal negligence.

It still comes down to properly practicing the technique and another tool for self defense. I'm advocating a method I know works, if it's practiced.

Between you and Massad Ayoob, who is more credible and experienced?

 

[Axxe55]

Between you and Massad Ayoob, who is more credible and experienced?

Let me ask you this question. In a violent attack on your person or your loved ones, with a violent criminal or deranged individual, and your life, or the lives of your loved ones are at stake, is Massad Ayoob going to be there to back you up, or will it all be on you?

Sure, he's written a few books on the subject, give seminars and lectures on the subject, and some seem to think he's an expert or an authority on the subject of self defense. I don't anymore. Because when the chips are down and it's me against someone that might end my life, he's not around. I only have myself to rely upon to survive that encounter. Not Massad Ayoob. I have and will learn and practice what I think I need t survive a violent encounter, and not what some so-called expert thinks I need to survive.