Learning to shoot accurately

[M. Sage]

I disagree somewhat with the magwell hold since it really depends on your stance and what kind of shooting you're doing, and definitely disagree with extending the stock all the way. An adjustable stock fits me much better on the second or third notch, not all the way back. If you're 6' or taller, then #4 should be where you set it, though. I even find that I don't entirely like the A2 stock, as it's a touch long for me, and the A1 is a much better fit...

Remember that "how the military does it today" is about 5 years behind the curve. Really.

 

[Texas1911]

I disagree somewhat with the magwell hold since it really depends on your stance and what kind of shooting you're doing, and definitely disagree with extending the stock all the way. An adjustable stock fits me much better on the second or third notch, not all the way back. If you're 6' or taller, then #4 should be where you set it, though. I even find that I don't entirely like the A2 stock, as it's a touch long for me, and the A1 is a much better fit...

Remember that "how the military does it today" is about 5 years behind the curve. Really.

A SEAL buddy of mine explained the whole reasoning behind the mag hold, and it makes alot of sense for movement fights ... fatigue. Holding the gun thumb over bore is great for snap shots and competition, but for prolonged movement and shooting you are just going to degrade your stability quickly. With the mag hold, you can rest the weight of the gun on your chest via your arm, kinda like small bore or rimfire shooters do in Biathlon. It's two grips for two purposes.

In terms of stance, the block stance is the only way you should shoot a rifle for close range shooting. For long range, the more traditional shooting holds are superior because they are focused on stability rather than control. Personally, if I am shooting at 200 yards or further, I'm going to go prone if I can.

 

[RetArmySgt]

Take it from someone that taught rifle marksmanship in the Army, the above post on grip position that Texas1911 posted is right. NEVER NEVER rest the rifle on the magazine, that is the fastest way to cause double feeds and misfires in an M16 based platform. When getting the sight picture for an M16 or M4 the easiest, most effective way is to put the tip of your nose on the tip of the charging handle. You will get the same picture every time and that is how the sights where designed. The proper group for the M16 and M4 before you are allowed to go to the qualification range is 5 out of 6 rounds in a Cm circle at 25yrds. Keep up the practice and work in the fundamentals and you will love that rifle. As for the stock on the adjustable ones put it where it is most comfortable for you to hold the contact between your nose and charging handle.

EDIT: and if you want a copy of the Army Group and Zero target let me know and i can send you an email with it as an attachment for you to print.

 

[RetArmySgt]

From the Army Manual- a little long.

Zero and M16A2 Rifle

TASK- Zero an M16A2 Rifle
CONDITIONS- On a 25-meter range, given an M16A2 rifle, 18 rounds of 5.56-mm ammunition, a 300-meter zero target, and sandbags for support.
STANDARDS- Using 18 rounds or less, the soldier must battlesight zero his rifle by achieving five out of six rounds in two consecutive shot groups within the 4-centimeter circle. Bullets that break the line of the 4-centimeter circle will be used in evaluating the soldier's performance.
TRAINING AND EVALUATION-
1. The M16A2 rifle has two adjustable sights -- front and rear. Elevation adjustments are made using the front sight, and elevation changes and windage adjustments are made using the rear sight.
2. The sight systems.
a. The rear sight has an elevation knob with range indicators from 300 to 800 meters and two apertures for range. One aperture is marked 0-2 for short range from 0-200 meters and an unmarked aperture for normal range from 300 to 800 meters.
(1) The 0-2 (large) aperture is used for short range (Figure 107). This aperture is used only when the rear sight is all the way down. The 8/3 (300-meter) mark on the elevation knob is aligned with the index mark on the left side of the receiver.
(2) The unmarked (small) aperture (Figure 108) is used for normal range. This aperture is used for most firing situations. It is used in conjunction with the elevation knob for 300- to 800-meter targets.
b. The rear sight also consists of a windage knob on the rear side of the sight (Figure 109).
(1) Each click of the windage knob will move the strike on the round from 1/8 inch (.3 centimeters) at 25 meters to 4 inches (10 centimeters) at 800 meters.
(2) A windage scale is on the rear of the sight and the windage knob pointer is on the windage knob.
c. The front sight consists of a rotating sight post with a spring-loaded detent (Figure 110).
.
Rear sight

(Left) Unmarked aperture (Right) Windage knob.

Front sight
1. The front sight is moved up or down when zeroing the rear sight
2. Once the rear sight is zeroed, the front sight post should not be moved
3. Each notch on the front sight will move the strike of the bullet from 3/8 inch (0.9 centimeters) to 2 3/4 inches (7 centimeters) at 200 meters.
3. Sight adjustments.
a. Rear sight.
(1) To adjust windage or move the strike of the round, turn the windage knob counterclockwise to move the strike to the left and clockwise to move the strike to the right (Figure 109).
(2) To adjust elevation, turn the elevation knob until the desire range is indexed at the index mark on the left side on the sight (Figure 107).
b. Front sight. To adjust elevation, depress the detent and rotate the sight post (Figure 111). To raise the strike of the round, rotate the sight post in the direction of the arrow marked UP. Reverse the direction of rotation to lower the strike.
4. Zero the rifle. The following steps will establish a zero at 25 meters, your M16A2 rifle sights will be set with a 300-meter battlesight zero.
a. Establish mechanical zero on the rifle.
(1) Align the windage indicator mark on the 0-2 aperture with the center line of the windage scale (the unmarked aperture is up) (Figure 109).
.
Figure 111. Depress detent..
(2) Rotate the elevation knob down until the range scale 8/3 (300-meter) mark is aligned with the mark on the left side of the receiver (Figure 107).
(3) Rotate the front sight post up or down as require until the base of the front sight post is flush with the top of the sight post well.
b. Zero at 25 meters.
(1) After setting the front and rear sights to mechanical zero, the elevation knob is rotated up (clockwise) one click past the 8/3 (300-meter) mark. The elevation knob will remain in this position until the battlesight zeroing has been completed.
NOTE: Any changes in elevation required during the zeroing procedures will be made using the front sight post only.
(2) Carefully aim and fire each shot of a three-shot group at the circle on the silhouette (Figure 112).
(3) If your shot group is not within the circle on the silhouette, use the squares on the target to determine the required clicks to move your next shot group into the circle (Figure 112).
NOTE: The squares are numbered around the edges of the target to equal the number of clicks required to move the shot group to the circle.
(4) To raise your next shot group, rotate the front sight post UP (clockwise). To lower your next shot group, rotate the front sight post DOWN (counterclockwise). One click will move the strike of the round one square on the target.
(5) To move the shot group to the left, turn the windage knob counterclockwise. To move the shot group to the right, turn the windage knob clockwise. Three clicks of the windage knob will move the strike of the round one square on the target.
(6) Continue to fire three-round shot groups and make corrections until you have a tight shot group in the circle on the silhouette.
.
25-meter zero target.
(I have full size printable copies if wanted)

(7) If your shot group is within the circle, your rifle is now "calibrated."
(8) To place your 300-meter zero on the rifle, you must rotate the elevation knob one click counterclockwise. The 8/3 (300-meter) mark on the elevation knob should now be aligned with the index mark on the left side of the sight.
NOTES: 1. There are clicks between the range numbers as you turn the elevation knob. Use these clicks if you need more elevation past a certain range number to hit a target.
2. The unmarked aperture is automatically zeroed to 200 meters. Use the 0-2 aperture when shooting at night or at close ranges; for example, in an urban environment or in dense jungle.
5. Sight setting. your rifle sights should be kept set to a combat zero of 300 meters. If you are told to engage a target at a longer range; for example, 500 meters:
a. Rotate the elevation knob so that the desired range mark is aligned with the index mark on the left side of the sight.
b. Engage the target.
c. When the engagement is over, return the sight to the 300-meter setting.
NOTE: When the rifle has been zeroed to 300 meters, all other ranges on the elevation knob are also zeroed.
​

 

[MR Redneck]

A SEAL buddy of mine explained the whole reasoning behind the mag hold, and it makes alot of sense for movement fights ... fatigue. Holding the gun thumb over bore is great for snap shots and competition, but for prolonged movement and shooting you are just going to degrade your stability quickly. With the mag hold, you can rest the weight of the gun on your chest via your arm, kinda like small bore or rimfire shooters do in Biathlon. It's two grips for two purposes.

In terms of stance, the block stance is the only way you should shoot a rifle for close range shooting. For long range, the more traditional shooting holds are superior because they are focused on stability rather than control. Personally, if I am shooting at 200 yards or further, I'm going to go prone if I can.

Im going to try your seal buddies mag hold method on my 45's. Im not as good as I want to be with hanguns, moslty because I dont have muscle memory. Im pretty big and I have some messed up crap in my neck. Working out as much as I can tends to cause my to flinch a lot while trying to be still. Im a pretty restless person because if I keep moving, the pain doesnt seem to catch up.
Hand under the mag and elbow to the chest might just help me.
And no Sgt. ,I wont do that with a rifle.

 

[M. Sage]

Im going to try your seal buddies mag hold method on my 45's. Im not as good as I want to be with hanguns, moslty because I dont have muscle memory. Im pretty big and I have some messed up crap in my neck. Working out as much as I can tends to cause my to flinch a lot while trying to be still. Im a pretty restless person because if I keep moving, the pain doesnt seem to catch up.
Hand under the mag and elbow to the chest might just help me.
And no Sgt. ,I wont do that with a rifle.

Doesn't work for crap with a pistol. That's called a "tea cup" method, and basically takes your support hand out of the equation entirely. Try this: YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting.

 

[tweek]

Wow. Apperciate all the additional feedback. Too bad I'm trying to work a bazillion hours between now and Thursday. As such it'll need to wait on a closer reading.

In regard to the stock extension: I'm 6'2" with plenty of reach. Not sure about the nose to the charging handle. I'll give it a whack Friday when I go out to play again.

Just picked up another box of 500 at CDT. Sitting in the closet waiting to go make more noise.

 

[RetArmySgt]

Give it a try, you might have to slightly adjust your sights due to the change in sight picture from how you zeroed before but it is a much better sight picture and a more consistant one.

 

[navyguy]

I was so turned off by Quail Creek a few years ago I swore I'd never go back. A sentiment that was shared be quite a few people. Maybe they've changed their tune, since you're giving them a thumbs up.

 

[M. Sage]

Give it a try, you might have to slightly adjust your sights due to the change in sight picture from how you zeroed before but it is a much better sight picture and a more consistant one.

+1. It's considered the way to do it.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

A SEAL buddy of mine explained the whole reasoning behind the mag hold, and it makes alot of sense for movement fights ... fatigue. Holding the gun thumb over bore is great for snap shots and competition, but for prolonged movement and shooting you are just going to degrade your stability quickly. With the mag hold, you can rest the weight of the gun on your chest via your arm, kinda like small bore or rimfire shooters do in Biathlon. It's two grips for two purposes.

Fatigue would be the least of my worries. If engaging an active shooter, home intruder, etc (as most of us would be most likely to face since not all of us are the fast roping type lol) I'd be most concerned with speed and economy of motion. Run the gun as fast as possible while maintaining an acceptable and effective level of accuracy. Remember every millisecond counts. The higher and farther forward holds (not necessarily 3 gun support arm locked full forward or anything) achieve this. The mag well hold is fine, but it does give up a degree of speed and precision in recoil control and target transitions. This is simple physics as there is more mass farther forward versus the location of your grip (fulcrum points). Think swinging a sledgehammer using only the last 6-8" or so versus being farther forward, it's tougher to get moving. Don't take my word for it. This is what most of the industry leading instructors are teaching now, and what people who's lives are on the line are using. This is really the same old story as the thumb over thumb Weaver pistol grip versus the thumbs forward and modern Iso grip; get as far forward and high on the gun to make that fulcrum point work to your advantage. I suspect it will take another 10-20yrs for this to come into the limelight, in much the same way as the thumbs forward grip.

All of this is besides the point. Accuracy is really simple. Other than the obvious issue of bullet drop, sight alignment, trigger pull. It's really that simple. If the point of impact is off, one of these 2 fundamentals was off when you broke the shot. There's more to it than that of course, such as physical or mental issues resulting in improper exercise of a fundamental. The fact still remains, the problem is not that complicated, it's more a mind game than anything else.

 

[tweek]

So I tried getting up closer to the rear sight. Didn't work for me. I tried for one 15 minutes session and it sucked for me. oh well.

What I did find to day was that just relaxing and getting a good sight picture works pretty well. The big challenge is getting myself to where I do it the same way everytime. Here is one example:

The right target blew me away. I have no idea how I stacked 3 shots on top eachother like that. I just relaxed, got the sight picture and fired. All three shots were done in about 8 seconds. I want that result every freaking time. The left target is more representative of where I'm at.

The center small target - yeah I dropped two badly. That was also the first target I went after for the day. The dropped shots do bother me. My excuse is that the green circle is smaller than the front post at 50 yards and really hard to stay on. Not sure that I'll be able to hit it when I move to 100 yards.

Oh - the small target is 3" in diameter, the red dot is 1". The big circles are 5" in diamter and the red dots are 1.5" in diamater.

Please bare in mind: I'm shooting iron sights on the 50 yard range. I shoot holding the rifle unsupported, my elbows on the bench.

I did try 10 rounds firing offhand. We won't talk about that right now. The best I can claim is that I was on the paper. Just not on the part of the paper that mattered.

What does make me feel good is looking at the guys with the blinged out ARs that are all the F over the place. They're shooting with the rilfe supported by blocks, they've got scopes or red dot sights and they can't group their shots worth shit. WTF? How the F are you off the center with a red dot? It's like a freaking guided missle, how can you miss?

 

[ZX9RCAM]

How the F are you off the center with a red dot? It's like a freaking guided missle, how can you miss?

Red dot (or laser sight) is no different that iron sight or scope.....still gotta put the sight/scope/dot on paper & hit where you aim.

 

[tweek]

Red dot (or laser sight) is no different that iron sight or scope.....still gotta put the sight/scope/dot on paper & hit where you aim.

well yeah, but one of the things I'm fighting is keeping the front post in focus (one of the lessons that helped me). I got to fire 12 shots with a red dot on the 50 yard line when I first started shooting. they all grouped inside an inch or so. The sight was not zero'd properly so the group was off center, but still. It's so easy to focus, put the dot where you want the bullet to go and send the bullet on its way.

 

[M. Sage]

Red dot (or laser sight) is no different that iron sight or scope.....still gotta put the sight/scope/dot on paper & hit where you aim.

The big differences are that you don't focus on the sight, you focus on the target and that you don't have to worry about sight alignment. I used to shoot tactical carbine matches with an AK and an EOTech (long gone, replaced by an Aimpoint) and every once in a while we'd make shots from odd positions where a cheek weld was hard to obtain. I would just shoot without one. Get the sight in front of my eye so I can see the dot, put the dot on the target and break the shot for a sure hit.

 

[tweek]

To Sage's point: I'm not knocking on Red Dots. If I were in a business where my life was on the line I'd absolutely want a a Red Dot on my M4. But like I said: I don't see how a shooter can miss the bulls eye with one of those on their rifle. Which might be why I don't have one yet. I'll keep working with my iron sights until I'm doing what I was taught consitently and perfectly and my groups on the 100 yard line get down to something respectable, like under 3".

The reason I'll get a red dot sight is to do some of the tacticle courses that are available to civilians. Where the ability to accurately hit a target and immediately acquire another is critical. Something that I would expect is very difficult (but obviously not impossible) to do with iron sights.

oh, I decided to do the Appleseed course this year. Hopefully that will get me where I want to go sooner.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

The big differences are that you don't focus on the sight, you focus on the target and that you don't have to worry about sight alignment. I used to shoot tactical carbine matches with an AK and an EOTech (long gone, replaced by an Aimpoint) and every once in a while we'd make shots from odd positions where a cheek weld was hard to obtain. I would just shoot without one. Get the sight in front of my eye so I can see the dot, put the dot on the target and break the shot for a sure hit.

You are 100% correct, but......it still requires all the skill, trigger control etc. to hit with an Aimpoint that it does with any other type sights. Aimpoints & laser
sights do not make a person a better shot than they already are.

 

[tweek]

A friend of mine in the rangers said if I was one of his joes
he would move me to supply for shooting that poorly

 

[tweek]

Zombie thread - back to life! Figure if a troll can stir up a lame thread w/ no point I can resurect a thread that at least has a goal: turn me in to a half MAO shooter: Simple Math for Marksmanship

One of the issues I'm dealing with is eye strain. I can't focus on the cheap ass targets I get at the range so its hard to get the same sight picture 1 shot to the next. So I figured out how to make targets that will appear to be roughly the size of my front post at 100 yards. This way I should be able to make the pumpkin on a stick sight picture shot to shot so the grouping of the shots will be a result of how smoothly I squeeze the trigger.

 

[Texas1911]

A friend of mine in the rangers said if I was one of his joes
he would move me to supply for shooting that poorly

Honestly, I've seen SF, Rangers, etc. that shoot poorly. Special Forces, Rangers, SEALs, etc. is more of a mindset and attitude than their actual abilities with a gun. At least, that has been my experience with them. They are a wealth of knowledge, but not the absolute end all.

Just keep an open mind and keep at it. It will take some trigger time to really pound down the skillset.

As far as targets go, get some single color targets with about a 3" circle, and shoot with a lollipop sight picture. White background with black or dark color dot works best.