Learning to shoot accurately

[Texas1911]

Also, use as much as you can in regards to rests. Eliminate the variables until you master the basics, once you've done that, move into position shooting. Situations in life often present rests ... car doors, door frames, etc. and no one is going to judge you for using what's available, and if they do ... they are stupid.

 

[M. Sage]

Take more breaks to deal with eyestrain.

What kind of targets are you shooting at? It's not those crappy ones with the orange on them, is it? If it's a black target that's giving you fits, you can get some sight blackener or just burn a match under the front sight to make it blacker than the target.

 

[tweek]

This type:

Good point on going ahead and using the rests to illiminate variables.

In regard to the supply comment - he was giving me a hard time. He's actually a damn good shot. Poor taliban guys I'm sure would testify to it, but did I mention he's a good shot?

 

[tweek]

Learned soming that the range: scopes while wonderful and magical do not turn you in to Carlos Hathcock. Also 4-16x is not as much as I thought it would be. For some dumb reason (my math skills are better than this and should have told me) I thought at 16x the 500 yard target would be the size of Oprah after Thanksgiving dinner. Alas, it just aint so.

While the scope helped me see the targets a lot better there is other stuff I still need to work on. One thing is for sure: the SCAR's trigger is its limiting factor for accuracy. I got on my friend DPMS Panther (he has a friggin supressor on it!) and was able to pound out ok groups at 200 yards (inside a 2" circle), but it has a 2lbs trigger.

I'll have a more complete write up later today. I first need to discuss some things w/ the owner of the scope before I go in to details.

 

[IXLR8]

I am a little late to this thread, but I have a question. It seems that every weapon that own has an iron sight that is at least 5 MOA wide. How do you accomplish a 1 MOA grouping with a sight like that? I have not used iron sights on an AR platform, only optics. Even with optics it is difficult to repeatedly get 1 MOA groupings, as shot from a rest of sandbags. Secondly, the first shot is always off on my AR's. For some reason (which has been discussed before on TGT) a cold barrel seems to be off a little. I cannot blame my equipment (Bushmaster Varmiter), because I have seen groupings from others that far exceed my level of skill. When attempting 1 MOA groupings, the temperature of the barrel does cause a small amount of drift, which is self correcting when cooled.
What type of iron sight would be used for a 1 MOA grouping at 100 yards? I will admit that bulk ammo is not as accurate as match ammo, but I enjoy shooting more than paying substantially more for accurate ammo. The most accurate bulk ammo that I can attest to using is the PRVI Partizan Boat tail bulk ammo.
One other oddity that discovered is that I can shoot more accurately at diamond targets, rather than the typical round ones. Is there any reason for that?

Thanks!

 

[M. Sage]

This type:

Good point on going ahead and using the rests to illiminate variables.

In regard to the supply comment - he was giving me a hard time. He's actually a damn good shot. Poor taliban guys I'm sure would testify to it, but did I mention he's a good shot?

Oh, those are horrible for learning to shoot with iron sights. The orange fades out when you focus on the front sight. Bring something different, something with a black circle works best. The target you've got works great for sighting in scopes because the cross hairs can get lost in black, but the orange contrasts. The bull's eye shape is also optimized for zeroing a scope.

 

[Texas1911]

I am a little late to this thread, but I have a question. It seems that every weapon that own has an iron sight that is at least 5 MOA wide. How do you accomplish a 1 MOA grouping with a sight like that? I have not used iron sights on an AR platform, only optics. Even with optics it is difficult to repeatedly get 1 MOA groupings, as shot from a rest of sandbags. Secondly, the first shot is always off on my AR's. For some reason (which has been discussed before on TGT) a cold barrel seems to be off a little. I cannot blame my equipment (Bushmaster Varmiter), because I have seen groupings from others that far exceed my level of skill. When attempting 1 MOA groupings, the temperature of the barrel does cause a small amount of drift, which is self correcting when cooled.
What type of iron sight would be used for a 1 MOA grouping at 100 yards? I will admit that bulk ammo is not as accurate as match ammo, but I enjoy shooting more than paying substantially more for accurate ammo. The most accurate bulk ammo that I can attest to using is the PRVI Partizan Boat tail bulk ammo.
One other oddity that discovered is that I can shoot more accurately at diamond targets, rather than the typical round ones. Is there any reason for that?

Thanks!

The key is getting the exact same sight picture every shot. What you are looking for is the entire picture, just like with shooting pistols. You want to check the relation on the sight to the target, do you have equal light or white on either side, is the post centered, and then squeeze, squeeze, bang. You'd be amazed at how tight of a group you can manage with iron sights and alot of focus on making every shot the same. You aren't really aiming at the target per se, but you are trying to get the exact same picture visually.

One technique I find that works is to bring the sights up to the target. Start at the base, and bring the post up until it touches the bottom of the contrasting circle. That is something that is easy to mimic, and with an AR15 with a 20" barrel I can hold about a 2 - 3 MOA grouping at 100 yards with go-bang ammo. Using an M1A with better ammo I can hold 1 - 2 MOA from my experience.

I get a much cleaner and more natural sight picture with the M1 series guns and full-size ARs. Using a carbine length AR I can hold about minute of pie plate at 100 yards.

 

[tweek]

I had a bit of a break through on Sunday. What 1911 says is absolutely true - sight picture is where it is at.

I used Publisher to create a stack of 6" black circle targets on 8.5X11 paper. I took those with me to the range to use instead of that other type of target. I actually used two of those but flipped them around so I'd have a big white field to center my black circle inside of. First observation: much better. I can clearly focus on the black circle from 100 yards away.

So then I took after it using my M4 w/ an EOTech.....meh. I like my EOTech but it is strickly for the tactical range. I landed everything on the sheet of paper, but the way the red dot blossoms out staying inside the circle was more difficult than it should have been. So I switched off the dot and flipped up the irons...double meh. The EOTech's glass causes a mirage so I'm looking at two black circles! Again - stayed on the paper (8x11) but keeping it inside the circle wasnt happening. This weekedn the EOTech will stay home.

Then we brought out the SCAR and all was good. Seriously. The irons on the SCAR are a dream. They are the HK style with a circle around the front post. Getting a consistent sight picture couldnt be easier. Just center the circle inside the appeture and you're good to go. After some practice I was able to put an entire 20 round clip into the circle.

I realize creating a 6" group isnt much to brag about, but I'll take it for now. I learned what the sight picture needs to look like. Also the 6" circle is about half of the width of the front sight post at 100 yards. You have to get the circle sitting on top of the post and keep it there. You also have to account for your bullet's trajectory. B/c I messed up my table (I did it when I had the scope on so it was for a 4" offset) so the bullet was striking lower than I expected so I had to put the front post about half way in to the circle so I'd hit toward about halfway down from the center.

I could probably find a small front sight post which might make this easier. However, at this point I think buying more stuff isn't really want is needed. I went out with a scope and shot OK, but I wasnt Carlos Hathcock like I thought I would be. Buying a narrowing front sight post won't really help either. What will help is continuing to practice getting a good sight picture and learning to be smooth on the trigger. Once those skills are mastered optics and fancy front sight posts will be worth investing in.

 

[M. Sage]

If the dot is blossoming, you've got it turned up too high. Set so that you can barely see it, then give it one more nudge up in intensity. You also have to remember to start focusing on the target when you switch to an EOTech or other dot sight. You get used to focusing on the front sight post, then change to focus on the target. You can find yourself trying to focus on the reticle that way... Being as the reticle is holographic, you can't really focus on it.

EOTech uses a 1MOA dot. The rifle and optic should be as accurate as you are, probably more so.

 

[tweek]

Didn't read Sage's comment beforehand. The EoTech is in its case in my safe right now.

Irons are where its at!

Not quite Vassili Zaitsev yet, but I'm getting there. I got kicked out of the house today by my wife - worked from 6am to about 2:30 and was getting really pissed at the project I'm working on. So I got to the range and guess what: shooting is pretty damn relaxing.

Anyway, I was able to repeat what I did last weekend only a little bit better. Out of a 14 round magazine I only dropped 3 outside the circle this time and the 3 were all about an inch off. Grouping still sucks, but I'm getting there. Also the SCAR's trigger is losening up.

What I learned today was to relax my eyes. The shots that I dropped all had fuzzy sight pictures. I was straining my eye to focus on the front post and target. I 'know' to focus only on the front post....knowing and doing are not the same. But once I relaxed my eyes things worked nicely.

Tomorrow I'm going to play with a scope again. We'll see if SCARlet eats another one. We'll also see if by being able to accurate see what I'm aiming at makes a difference.

I also shot the M4 wit irons. Because I've been swapping stuff on it I had to rezero it so I played on the 25 yard line. It's kinda fun and makes you feel like you can actually shoot good. Once I had my zero (~2" low for a 200 yard zero) I started shooting on some left over targets that were hanging. It was fun driving the bullets around to where I wanted them.

Question: can I get a narrower front post? A 6" circle takes up maybe 1/2 of the front post at 100 yards. at 200 yards it will be a spec.

 

[M. Sage]

Question: can I get a narrower front post? A 6" circle takes up maybe 1/2 of the front post at 100 yards. at 200 yards it will be a spec.

A National Match post would be narrower, but could be slower to pick up. You'd probably want the NM aperture in the rear to match if you did it, too.

One other option is to learn to adjust your sights for a 6 o'clock hold on the target.

This is what a 6 hold looks like:

 

[ROGER4314]

A friend of ours is a Correctional Officer who failed her rifle qualification. They use AR-15's from offhand (standing) position at 50 yards. She asked me for help which I gladly agreed to. In 60 minutes, we dry fired in my house and I gave her instruction in offhand shooting. The weather was lousy so I let her take a rifle home to practice with (dry firing only) .......... which she did. I found out tonight that she made 90% on her retest!

I suggest that you find someone who can PROVE they can shoot and get some instruction. Please remember that any jerk who can hold a rifle is an expert.......... or so they say. Find someone with a real record of shooting excellence. Sixty minutes with that guy is worth years of screwing around trying to figure it out on your own.

Good Luck!

Flash

 

[ROGER4314]

The sight picture is, indeed, critical.

If the sights are aligned correctly but positioned a bit high or low of the target, the error in desired impact will be more or less what the sighting error was.

If the sights are poorly aligned, the amount of error will be be expressed as an angle and will increase with distance. That error in impact is limitless. It just keeps getting bigger as distance increases.

Focus on the front post. The target & rear sight can be blurry. Putting the front post where it belongs and aligned is most of the iron sight game.

Flash

 

[tweek]

I think the short cut to get where I want is going to be taking a class. Initially I was looking at the Suarez Guerilla Sniper class, but after looking at their catalog and doing further research I think the designated marksman class is more appropriate.

 

[ROGER4314]

Second, you can pull in your foreward hand and support the rifle by holding the magazine well. Third, it's ok to support the rifle on the magazine.

Using the magazine for support is not allowed in NRA matches and slings are not allowed to be used in Offhand/standing position. The left hand/arm is used for support only. The left hand should not pull on the rifle forearm at all. Bottom line is that you need to decide what type of shooting you intend to do and train in that style & technique.

On the use of the left hand/arm for support, you can adapt that if necessary. My hands are very large and if I place my hand on the AR forearm normally, my giant fingers will foul the ejection port. I turn my left hand around backwards so just my thumb is on the ejection port side. It works great for me and it clears the ejection port!

Flash

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The farther out your support hand grabs the gun, the more stable you can hold the gun as you will be in better control of all the mass. Granted, the farther out you hold the fore end, the quicker you will fatigue, but at the same time if doing say a mag well hold you have all that mass in front of you which can also be fatiguing. By bringing in that stabilizer (arm) closer to the body, the end result is you'll tend to see more movement in the muzzle and will have a harder time keeping it as stable. Farther out = better control of the gun, which is superior for many uses IMO (not necessarily all).

The easiest way to learn is with a competent instructor. A truly great instructor will help you understand not only the "what", but also the "why" and the "how" of what you are trying to accomplish. On top of that, a great instructor will watch your every move and help you analyze exactly what you are doing right and wrong so you can intuitively correct it, and so that you can start to recognize these things on your own and self-correct. A good instructor will help students become thinkers as opposed to simply instruction followers. In my experience I have seen a LOT more "instruction followers" than I have true "thinkers", so be selective and do your homework on a class/school/instructor before spending that hard-earned money on a class of lesser quality.

If you have the right mindset and drive, you can learn a lot on your own through research and practice, but I can tell you from personal experience it is a long, time consuming, and inefficient way to go about it as opposed to starting out with professional instruction and avoiding lots of time-wasting stuff. There is no substitute for hands on instruction by a competent instructor either, so learning on your own can only get you so far. I started off several years ago taking the hard route. For whatever reason I didn't have the drive I do now to learn quite as much and go take classes, though I was still a very analytical person. I started out doing lots of research, watching training videos and then practicing what I saw. The first 2-3yrs I wasted LOTS of ammo (had a lot more disposable income). I didn't have an instructor there to help me understand my inefficiencies and help me work through them efficiently, so it took me much longer to get where I am. The funny thing is, I've only been to a few professional classes, and thus far have found that I am a more competent shooter than many of the people I've come across (including LE/Mil, local SWAT and a few of the SF types I've seen). Don't get me wrong, I still have a whole hell of a lot to learn and personally think the learning never stops. I chalk this up to mindset and a zest for knowledge which not too many people seem to have these days. Regardless, I wasted several years to get where I'm at, but had I started out right in the first place and had some professional instruction to begin with, I could have been much farther along in skill than where I'm at today. If there is only one thing you take from this, make it this: Strive to be the thinker not the follower.

 

[jr urbina]

The farther out your support hand grabs the gun, the more stable you can hold the gun as you will be in better control of all the mass. Granted, the farther out you hold the fore end, the quicker you will fatigue, but at the same time if doing say a mag well hold you have all that mass in front of you which can also be fatiguing. By bringing in that stabilizer (arm) closer to the body, the end result is you'll tend to see more movement in the muzzle and will have a harder time keeping it as stable. Farther out = better control of the gun, which is superior for many uses IMO (not necessarily all).

The easiest way to learn is with a competent instructor. A truly great instructor will help you understand not only the "what", but also the "why" and the "how" of what you are trying to accomplish. On top of that, a great instructor will watch your every move and help you analyze exactly what you are doing right and wrong so you can intuitively correct it, and so that you can start to recognize these things on your own and self-correct. A good instructor will help students become thinkers as opposed to simply instruction followers. In my experience I have seen a LOT more "instruction followers" than I have true "thinkers", so be selective and do your homework on a class/school/instructor before spending that hard-earned money on a class of lesser quality.

If you have the right mindset and drive, you can learn a lot on your own through research and practice, but I can tell you from personal experience it is a long, time consuming, and inefficient way to go about it as opposed to starting out with professional instruction and avoiding lots of time-wasting stuff. There is no substitute for hands on instruction by a competent instructor either, so learning on your own can only get you so far. I started off several years ago taking the hard route. For whatever reason I didn't have the drive I do now to learn quite as much and go take classes, though I was still a very analytical person. I started out doing lots of research, watching training videos and then practicing what I saw. The first 2-3yrs I wasted LOTS of ammo (had a lot more disposable income). I didn't have an instructor there to help me understand my inefficiencies and help me work through them efficiently, so it took me much longer to get where I am. The funny thing is, I've only been to a few professional classes, and thus far have found that I am a more competent shooter than many of the people I've come across (including LE/Mil, local SWAT and a few of the SF types I've seen). Don't get me wrong, I still have a whole hell of a lot to learn and personally think the learning never stops. I chalk this up to mindset and a zest for knowledge which not too many people seem to have these days. Regardless, I wasted several years to get where I'm at, but had I started out right in the first place and had some professional instruction to begin with, I could have been much farther along in skill than where I'm at today. If there is only one thing you take from this, make it this: Strive to be the thinker not the follower.

Great advice here.

 

[ROGER4314]

The match shooters jam their left elbow into their waist/hip area and make a support table with their left arm. A variation of that is to scoot your hip outward a little to support the left elbow. That's called a "goofy hip" stance.

I have a different variation yet! I use the side of my belly! I figure if I gotta carry the thing around, I might as well use it for something besides a bed for my little dog. Anyway, the left arm is not extended much at all but the muscles are not holding the rifle, the bones are.

Get your natural point of aim by shifting your front foot a bit and close your eyes to verify the NPOA is correct as the front sight comes down on the target. If windage isn't correct, move your front foot a little until it is. Breathe in, raising the front post above the target. Close your eyes, exhale and then check where the front post is for windage. Never muscle the rifle into position. Shift your body until the rifle slips naturally into position. That is "natural point of aim".

Once the NPOA is set for windage, use breathing to raise and lower the muzzle. Start high, exhale until the front post is on target and squeeze. Always shift the muzzle from high to low. Gravity works FOR you instead of against you then.

Use a 6 o'clock hold as dead center hold is too hard to estimate at long ranges. Matches are designed so the target looks like it is the size of a postage stamp at 200. At 300, the target is bigger so the target still looks like a postage stamp from the firing line. At 600, the target is still bigger and keeps the same apparent size. I mention this because if you stick a 1" diameter sticker on your door or wall, you can dry fire practice at home and get the exact target picture as you do at the match.

I realize my posts contradict some others but I'm not a hunter or military. I shoot NRA matches and that's the way it's done in matches. SO......take your pick!

Flash