Plan B - less than lethal

[BRD@66]

Long ago, in that latter part of the 20th century, my 1st CHL instructor suggested that one needs to have a deterrent of less lethality than a firearm. In case the situation called for that. The obvious example was pepper spray. I dutifully carried pepper spray in addition to my firearm for quite a while. But - I quit some time ago & sometimes I feel guilty about not having that less-than-lethal plan B.
Do any of you have such a plan B? What is it?

 

[toddnjoyce]

I’ve never carried less than lethal. My ‘Plan B’ is an overall defensive mindset. I really try to understand what situations I’m placing myself in before I enter it and then have contingency options.

I don’t do crowds, I don’t do late night. I don’t do known unsafe areas.

If I’m in a position to de-escalate by leaving I will.

 

[baboon]

M203 loaded with wooded batons, foam bullet, rubber buckshot & flash bangs.

 

[vmax]

JK

I dont carry LTL

 

[robertc1024]

A good tongue lashing? I pretty much always carry a gun and a knife. Never even thought about pepper spray etc.

 

[grasshopperglock]

Less then lethal is you avoiding the situation. Walk away.

If your life is in danger. There's no middle ground. You either avoid the threat or stop the threat. If you feel less then deadly force will stop the threat. Again, walk away.

 

[BillFairbanks]

If plan b doesn’t work then the attacker may have an opportunity to get my weapon. If someone attacks me I’ll use the most effective defense to stop the attack.




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[cb51]

Like the others, I don't believe in less than lethal.

I had the bad luck to grow up in a bad part of D.C. Poor neighborhood, lots of crime. I fond out young that one thing only stops a criminal. Fear of being very badly hurt or killed. Like the N.R.A. says, more crime is stopped by the mere presence of a gun than by having to shoot. The low life street thug knows fear of death. Period.

Predators are looking for an easy meal/victim. They are not looking for a gunfight that may get them killed. About 99% of the time that armed resistance is thrown up, the criminal flees. But, and this is the big but...most of them have been maced/pepper sprayed before and they know it won't kill them. Some f them can even fight through it . But they are under no such illusion abut a bullet entering their stomach and going out the back.

Being mugged is a posable killing. Respond to any criminal assault like it's a life or death fight because it is. I'm not using less than lethal on some thug that may want to kill me. yet another reason fled the whole D.C. area for a stand your ground state.

 

[BRD@66]

The reason that I have revisited these thoughts is due to an unarmed carjacking in Cedar Park a few days ago. Dad still in the HEB. Mom & 2 kids go on to the car where she puts kids in back seat, herself in co-pilot seat & wait for Dad to catch up. Bad Guy slides into the drivers seat & tells Mom that she (& hers) need to get out of the car. They got out - but what if....

 

[grasshopperglock]

Yep

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Long ago, in that latter part of the 20th century, my 1st CHL instructor suggested that one needs to have a deterrent of less lethality than a firearm. In case the situation called for that. The obvious example was pepper spray. I dutifully carried pepper spray in addition to my firearm for quite a while. But - I quit some time ago & sometimes I feel guilty about not having that less-than-lethal plan B.
Do any of you have such a plan B? What is it?

I strongly believe in a less lethal plan 'B', I think every one should. Plan A = KIA, Plan B WIA, works for me, its a matter of shooting you in the leg or shooting tween the eyes...

 

[toddnjoyce]

Plan B WIA, works for me, its a matter of shooting you in the leg or shooting tween the eyes...

Generally speaking the law won’t support that. For certain occupations though, the law will.

If there’s enough danger to warrant the use of a firearm, there’s enough danger to justify use of deadly force. In Texas; go somewhere else and ymmv.

I choose to travel/vacation/etc where I have a right to defend myself with a deadly weapon.

 

[oldag]

If I have to use any type weapon, it will be to stop the threat as soon as possible.

As others have noted, if possible exit the situation. If not possible, I will not take chances with the lives of my family or others around. The threat will be stopped if possible.

 

[toddnjoyce]

The reason that I have revisited these thoughts is due to an unarmed carjacking in Cedar Park a few days ago. Dad still in the HEB. Mom & 2 kids go on to the car where she puts kids in back seat, herself in co-pilot seat & wait for Dad to catch up. Bad Guy slides into the drivers seat & tells Mom that she (& hers) need to get out of the car. They got out - but what if....

Plan B: Either gun in car (castle doctrine) for wife or LTC. No desire to self-defend? Take the kids and leave, that’s what insurance is for. Or avoid the situation and stay with the husband inside the store. Or ask for a security escort to the vehicle.

Lots of options that are non-traditional less than lethal. But pepper spray in a car is a non-starter for me. Confined area with an irritant and kids, to begin with. Add in a little wind from the assailant’s open door and the LTL winds up in your face.

That’s what’s f*d up about the LTL argument. Either the law won’t hold up, or the environmentals work against you.

But, in TX, the scenario you posted would support gunshots to the face until the criminal was no longer a factor.

 

[Charlie]

F'em! If I'm approached by a "thug", etc. and threatened, one of us is going to get hurt, hopefully him or her. No in between. Jack with me or mine, somebody's going to bleed!

 

[McCrapper]

Only "Plan B" I've ever worried about is the stuff they sell at Walgreens, definitely a lifesaver there.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Generally speaking the law won’t support that. For certain occupations though, the law will.

If there’s enough danger to warrant the use of a firearm, there’s enough danger to justify use of deadly force. In Texas; go somewhere else and ymmv.

I choose to travel/vacation/etc where I have a right to defend myself with a deadly weapon.

Todd, gonna disagree on this point. Because something else comes into play and that is the level defense-offense should be in proportion to the level of threat. You catch a kid popping a hub cap hard to justify killing him, even if you win in court the civil suit will own you.

But the kid started hitting with the hubcap and he won't stop shot him in the leg, my bet is he is gonna stop...its situational for sure.

Its 3am, yoiu get up to take a pizz, you and family are at home in bed, there is a noise and you see a light moving around, you go back to the bedroom and grab your 1911. You don't know who or how many, but with stealth you are able to observe and its only one guy, he is going thru your desk in the office, you quietly walk in and put the gun next to his ear as you tell him to FREEZE and make a move and I pull the trigger.

You flip on the lights and its the 16 yr old kid that lives somewhere in the neighborhood, he is a known problem child, been in trouble with the law and has seen time in a jail cell already in his young life.

I could have shot him when I saw him coming out of my mothers room, instead I carefully watched and heard my mother snoring, knew she was ok. Had he turned left he could have gone into my daughters room, but he turned right and went into the office so I gave him a break.

I said little, just told him to pick up the fone and dial 911 and tell them what you have done and the home owner is standing here with a gun, send the police NOW!.

I lived in town no far from the police substation, so porch light goes on, we stand on the front steps, I tell him he starts to run, it will be the last race he ever runs because he is not going to out run the bullet.

Police cars (2) pull up with lights on, LEO gets out and tell the kid to go, he takes off running straight towards the policeman coming down my sidewalk, kids has hands outstretched to the cop can put the cuffs on.

I saw the cop a few days later at the 7-11 and he was laughing, he told me he had never seen anyone that scared, he said the kid had pissed in his pants. I laughed and said that was my intention to scare the crap out of him, maybe he will turn a corner for the better, I said the kid was shaking harder than a dog trying to pass a peach pit, I said I my gun at the base of his neck the whole time.

I am old school, when I was a LEO we talked them down and my Sheriff his policy was if the gun has to come out of the holster you better have you finger on the trigger, he believed in the level of force required to contain the threat, no more, no less. He was one tough SOB, Had his left leg shot off just below the knee in Korea charging a pillbox.

 

[pronstar]

Plan A is avoiding the situation.

Plan B is unholstering my gun.

There may be other courses of action between A and B, depending on the situation.


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[Shady]

being a tough guy and walking up to someone robbing your home close enough to put a gun to his ear is plain foolish.

How are you going to feel if the guy you did not shoot after he turns 18 and gets out of kiddie jail comes back and does something unthinkable like killing or assaulting a family member, he does know where you live and that you put him in jail.

Am I saying I would blindly shoot anyone in my home and feel good about it nope not at all just something to think about.

You may also be lucky and after his experience he turns his life around and becomes the guy who cures cancer.

I also would refuse to call someone who is a burglar at 16 a kid if hes out doing crime he is no longer a child.

Todd, gonna disagree on this point. Because something else comes into play and that is the level defense-offense should be in proportion to the level of threat. You catch a kid popping a hub cap hard to justify killing him, even if you win in court the civil suit will own you.

But the kid started hitting with the hubcap and he won't stop shot him in the leg, my bet is he is gonna stop...its situational for sure.

Its 3am, yoiu get up to take a pizz, you and family are at home in bed, there is a noise and you see a light moving around, you go back to the bedroom and grab your 1911. You don't know who or how many, but with stealth you are able to observe and its only one guy, he is going thru your desk in the office, you quietly walk in and put the gun next to his ear as you tell him to FREEZE and make a move and I pull the trigger.

You flip on the lights and its the 16 yr old kid that lives somewhere in the neighborhood, he is a known problem child, been in trouble with the law and has seen time in a jail cell already in his young life.

I could have shot him when I saw him coming out of my mothers room, instead I carefully watched and heard my mother snoring, knew she was ok. Had he turned left he could have gone into my daughters room, but he turned right and went into the office so I gave him a break.

I said little, just told him to pick up the fone and dial 911 and tell them what you have done and the home owner is standing here with a gun, send the police NOW!.

I lived in town no far from the police substation, so porch light goes on, we stand on the front steps, I tell him he starts to run, it will be the last race he ever runs because he is not going to out run the bullet.

Police cars (2) pull up with lights on, LEO gets out and tell the kid to go, he takes off running straight towards the policeman coming down my sidewalk, kids has hands outstretched to the cop can put the cuffs on.

I saw the cop a few days later at the 7-11 and he was laughing, he told me he had never seen anyone that scared, he said the kid had pissed in his pants. I laughed and said that was my intention to scare the crap out of him, maybe he will turn a corner for the better, I said the kid was shaking harder than a dog trying to pass a peach pit, I said I my gun at the base of his neck the whole time.

I am old school, when I was a LEO we talked them down and my Sheriff his policy was if the gun has to come out of the holster you better have you finger on the trigger, he believed in the level of force required to contain the threat, no more, no less. He was one tough SOB, Had his left leg shot off just below the knee in Korea charging a pillbox.

 

[oldag]

Todd, gonna disagree on this point. Because something else comes into play and that is the level defense-offense should be in proportion to the level of threat. You catch a kid popping a hub cap hard to justify killing him, even if you win in court the civil suit will own you.

But the kid started hitting with the hubcap and he won't stop shot him in the leg, my bet is he is gonna stop...its situational for sure.

Its 3am, yoiu get up to take a pizz, you and family are at home in bed, there is a noise and you see a light moving around, you go back to the bedroom and grab your 1911. You don't know who or how many, but with stealth you are able to observe and its only one guy, he is going thru your desk in the office, you quietly walk in and put the gun next to his ear as you tell him to FREEZE and make a move and I pull the trigger.

You flip on the lights and its the 16 yr old kid that lives somewhere in the neighborhood, he is a known problem child, been in trouble with the law and has seen time in a jail cell already in his young life.

I could have shot him when I saw him coming out of my mothers room, instead I carefully watched and heard my mother snoring, knew she was ok. Had he turned left he could have gone into my daughters room, but he turned right and went into the office so I gave him a break.

I said little, just told him to pick up the fone and dial 911 and tell them what you have done and the home owner is standing here with a gun, send the police NOW!.

I lived in town no far from the police substation, so porch light goes on, we stand on the front steps, I tell him he starts to run, it will be the last race he ever runs because he is not going to out run the bullet.

Police cars (2) pull up with lights on, LEO gets out and tell the kid to go, he takes off running straight towards the policeman coming down my sidewalk, kids has hands outstretched to the cop can put the cuffs on.

I saw the cop a few days later at the 7-11 and he was laughing, he told me he had never seen anyone that scared, he said the kid had pissed in his pants. I laughed and said that was my intention to scare the crap out of him, maybe he will turn a corner for the better, I said the kid was shaking harder than a dog trying to pass a peach pit, I said I my gun at the base of his neck the whole time.

I am old school, when I was a LEO we talked them down and my Sheriff his policy was if the gun has to come out of the holster you better have you finger on the trigger, he believed in the level of force required to contain the threat, no more, no less. He was one tough SOB, Had his left leg shot off just below the knee in Korea charging a pillbox.

There are some real problems here.

That kid who broke into your home and you gave a pass could have very easily had a gun that you did not see. He is quicker on the draw than you expect, you hesitate a little... You could have ended up dead and perhaps your family assaulted and killed. You did not know. He could have had a partner. Partner distracts you, kid pulls his gun and you are dead. Anyone breaking into my home in the middle of the night has voluntarily given up his right to live. I will not gamble with the lives/welfare of my loved ones.

I am not a LEO. I am not bound by proportional response.

Someone stealing a hubcap? They better take off or when I yell. If I have to approach (not likely), they better freeze. Any sudden move and I must assume they are going for a weapon. Again, you don't know who has a gun tucked in their waistband, in their pocket, laying on the ground next to them, etc.