Police ammo

[Gordo]

Police use boolits

Trump used mean tweets, and they are still trying to put him in jail.

 

[Gordo]

I use blanks so no worries about liability.

You will get sued for their hearing loss...

 

[Hoji]

Hope he didn't pay much for his lawyer! Whatever it was he deserves a refund.

Read up on the case. Tons of evidence was suppressed and not allowed to be introduced to trial by activist judge and prosecutor ( sound familiar ? Daniel Perry comes immediately to mind)

 

[Whistler]

No surprise here, just being a smartass. This is, however, exactly my objection to the flippant "tell it to the judge", "sort it out in court" responses common to reports of LEO overreach and malfeasance.
Once we could expect justice, now it's only the law.

 

[candcallen]

To those of you laughing at the OP’s reasoning;

In a just world deadly force is deadly force. Whether it is a pistol or a SUV, if you are justified in its use, it should be a non issue.

In the clown world we live in;

Harold Fish- convicted of 2nd Degree murder ( overturned on appeal after serving 3 years) part of the prosecution’s argument ( or shit they slung to 12 who couldn’t get out of jury duty) was his choice of ammo and caliber ( 10mm)

That is the only one I can cite off the top of my head, but it does happen.

Know the fish story well. The punk Coconino county prosecutors played the he was out to kill cause he had a 10mm card well. It took testimony that police carried 10mm to counter that. His defense was lacking in the original case obviously cause they couldn't counter a simple trick.

 

[rp-]

I've actually asked several police from different departments and federal HST is the other one I hear.

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[candcallen]

Remember in modern ammo that Duty denotes passing all the barrier and penetration testing the FBI puts forth and Defense often denotes better performance in shorter barrells but not the barrier and penetration standards. Some variations of this among different manufacturers.

 

[DoubleDuty]

To those of you laughing at the OP’s reasoning;

In a just world deadly force is deadly force. Whether it is a pistol or a SUV, if you are justified in its use, it should be a non issue.

In the clown world we live in;

Harold Fish- convicted of 2nd Degree murder ( overturned on appeal after serving 3 years) part of the prosecution’s argument ( or shit they slung to 12 who couldn’t get out of jury duty) was his choice of ammo and caliber ( 10mm)

That is the only one I can cite off the top of my head, but it does happen.

The importance of a good attorney

 

[cycleguy2300]

So if I use the same as they do, the courts cannot say I used overkill ammo.

Deadly force is deadly force.

If deadly force is justified you cant use "too much". If you are justified stabbing them with an pen knife, you would be equally as justified to blast them with a API .50 BMG.

The "USE WHAT THE COPS USE" stems from handwringing ninnies who do not understand the law or are trying to sell you on fear for a profit.

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[glenbo]

Massad Ayoob has written several times about using the same ammo as your local police. If I remember this correctly, he was expert witness in a case where the shooter had used handloads in a self-defense shooting and the poor dindu was dead. The prosecuting attorney said something like, "The defendant wasn't satisfied with deadly ammunition readily available, he loaded his own to make it even more deadly!" That's patently absurd to anyone with a brain, which leaves out many lawyers. But I think it was that case that made Ayoob certain that using hand loads won't be good in a self-defense shooting, but even a stupid lawyer can see that if you use the same ammo as the cops who respond to the shooting, stupid lawyer can't use the ammo against you. Good enough for the popo, good enough for the people.

 

[rp-]

This is good info. Personally I buy pull down HSTs from American reloading and load them close to factory velocity. I do this because I can reload 500 rounds for cheap and actually practice with them instead of spending a buck a pop or more to practice with them.




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[Eastexasrick]

The "USE WHAT THE COPS USE" stems from handwringing ninnies who do not understand the law or are trying to sell you on fear for a profit.

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Best post this week, maybe all year.

 

[Eastexasrick]

Massad Ayoob has written several times about using the same ammo as your local police. If I remember this correctly, he was expert witness in a case where the shooter had used handloads in a self-defense shooting and the poor dindu was dead. The prosecuting attorney said something like, "The defendant wasn't satisfied with deadly ammunition readily available, he loaded his own to make it even more deadly!" That's patently absurd to anyone with a brain, which leaves out many lawyers. But I think it was that case that made Ayoob certain that using hand loads won't be good in a self-defense shooting, but even a stupid lawyer can see that if you use the same ammo as the cops who respond to the shooting, stupid lawyer can't use the ammo against you. Good enough for the popo, good enough for the people.

Just addressing stupid lawyers:
Plaintiff attorneys, or prosecuting attorneys, depending on if its civil or criminal will throw everything against the wall to see if it will stick (shit included). A fair-minded judge will allow for an abjection, but it's out there and the jury heard it. If the prosecuting attorney is worth his weight in dirt the fact you are proactive in ammo choice, shoot often enough to be proficient, use a weapon that is more powerful than a BB gun, or inherently accurate, will all be introduced, to the jury of your peers. Even our posts herein are discoverable. If fou rely on your attorney being smarter than the prosecuting attorney, you are going to need an appellate attorney soon. Stupid prosecutors, Fair minded judges, and impartial juries are few and far between. Stupid prosecutors are ever increasing, so there is that.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Massad Ayoob has written several times about using the same ammo as your local police....

Mas makes money as an expert witness and since he’s said it at trial, he keeps having to repeat it.

The problem everyone faces once at trial is facts mattering much less than persuasion. Attorneys for both sides start with the persuasion bit in their very first filing, continue it thru jury selection and the trial, and even past the post-trial press conferences. Very few juries will know the law or even pay attention if the relevant laws are provided to them; they’re persuaded one way or the other, the law be dammed.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Mas makes money as an expert witness and since he’s said it at trial, he keeps having to repeat it.

The problem everyone faces once at trial is facts mattering much less than persuasion. Attorneys for both sides start with the persuasion bit in their very first filing, continue it thru jury selection and the trial, and even past the post-trial press conferences. Very few juries will know the law or even pay attention if the relevant laws are provided to them; they’re persuaded one way or the other, the law be dammed.

Trials are not about facts or truth, but persuasion as you say.

That said any half-witted attorney would be able to argue away "deadlier ammo = desire to kill"

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[Bobbycurtdawg]

Asked my buddy who is EP PD.

His answer was "super vel +p",

Kinda surprised me. He also added they are solid copper.

 

[Whalercohasset]

Considering how eager DA's are to prosecute police, I'd rethink even mentioning it.

 

[Bobbycurtdawg]

Considering how eager DA's are to prosecute police, I'd rethink even mentioning it.

I'm not worried about it. It's issued ammo according to him. I'd imagine the brand of issued ammo doesn't have much to do with a clean shoot being scrutinized.

I actually asked him about this about a month ago, I'd never heard of super vel before that. I 100% expected him to say rangers, HST or gold dot.

 

[Hoji]

Deadly force is deadly force.

If deadly force is justified you cant use "too much". If you are justified stabbing them with an pen knife, you would be equally as justified to blast them with a API .50 BMG.

The "USE WHAT THE COPS USE" stems from handwringing ninnies who do not understand the law or are trying to sell you on fear for a profit.

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True. But what if my weapon of convienience if I experience a home invasion is my katana? Or my personal favorite jobsite tool, the 8lb sledge hammer. Pretty sure a Soros DA would have no problem prosecuting me if I went in that direction vs grabbing the Benelli.( and I would probably be looking at prosecution for the shotgun as well) but you can maximize your odds at GJ or at trial if you are not using something “exotic” when the justifiable use of deadly force is used.

“RIP” or “DRT” brand ammo would not do you any favors if presented to a Travis, Harris, Bexar, etc jury.

 

[General Zod]

So if I use the same as they do, the courts cannot say I used overkill ammo.

Ah, but if you match the police ammo, then the prosecutor can say you're a cop-wannabe vigilante who was looking for an excuse to live out his Dirty Harry fantasies...