Proving it's yours...

[MR Redneck]

Grettings all from your friendly neighborhood property recovery officer!

All of the above are solid ways to prove your ownership. I would add a few refinements to add to your credibility of ownership.

1. When photographing, get a shot of the serial number (if possible) of the firearm. Include distinguishing marks, scratches (heaven forbid), wear patterns, etc. Look at how well folks on Gun Broker and other online auction document the condition of the firearm. You do the same and you enhance your credibility.

2. If buying from an individual have a brief form, documenting the firearm, and date of the sale. Have them sign it. If they are unwilling to do this, think twice about doing this. You need not have all their identifying information, just their signature.

3. Keep a copy of your serial numbers in a separate location. I keep a copy of mine in my desk at the police department.

4. If there is not a serial number - pre 1968 firearms may not have a serial number and be totally legal. Inscribe your state DL or ID(drivers license or state identification card) number. Do NOT use your social security number. I can track your DL or ID far far better than I can your SSN. Your SSN is federal and I do not have access to that information. The FBI and other federal agencies do have access but they are less than helpful ( having their hands full of other cases) to help me.

5. Receipts are the gold standard. Always keep your receipts. In a messy property hearing, (I've had a couple) the unbiased receipt was the clear winner.

I hope this is helpful. If there are any questions or anyone needs further information, you can always contact me off line via PM or e-mail.

Thanks man, that really helps. I always keep my new reciepts. I even get people I dont know to sign a "homemade" bill of sale just in case. I have bought a couple of guns from people I didnt really know and looked a little iffy. I make them give me a DL to record on the bill of sale.
One thing I need to do is take pictures.

 

[ii]

Go here and get you some of these. They are FREE! Not only will there now be a written record of your ownership of the firearm however there is a section to indicate where/how you acquired the firearm. Proof is right there. Not only that its on a federal document that you took the liberty of filling out.

Distribution Center Order Form

ATF P 3312.8 - Personal Firearms Record

 

[MR Redneck]

Go here and get you some of these. They are FREE! Not only will there now be a written record of your ownership of the firearm however there is a section to indicate where/how you acquired the firearm. Proof is right there. Not only that its on a federal document that you took the liberty of filling out.

Distribution Center Order Form

ATF P 3312.8 - Personal Firearms Record

You gotta be kidding me! You think im filling that crap out?

 

[ii]

You gotta be kidding me! You think im filling that crap out?

I am not surprised that some are hesitant to use the forms. Use one form per item that way you only have to show that single form to Law Enforcement when they are helping you retrieve your items. (So they dont have your entire collection on file)

 

[MR Redneck]

I am not surprised that some are hesitant to use the forms. Use one form per item that way you only have to show that single form to Law Enforcement when they are helping you retrieve your items. (So they dont have your entire collection on file)

Thanks for the effort but I have no desire for that form. After all Iam one of those people who think LE should have to proove it's not your before they can keep it.
I took the advise of pawncop. I think he has the best advise on this subject. Im also hauling the pictures with the SN to a Public Notary.

 

[ii]

Thanks for the effort but I have no desire for that form. After all Iam one of those people who think LE should have to proove it's not your before they can keep it.
I took the advise of pawncop. I think he has the best advise on this subject. Im also hauling the pictures with the SN to a Public Notary.

Understood... guess its different when the ATF already has your serial numbers on file. IE NFA items. pawncop gives excellent advice. Cheers!

 

[OldCurlyWolf]

I have read a few discussions about this issue. If Law Enforcement has your gun, it seem they require you to prove it is yours before you get it back.
If you buy a gun from an individual and simply do a cash transaction, you wouldnt have a reciept.
If a family member gives you a gun, you probably couldnt prove that either.
If you inherit some guns, still no proof.

So how do you prove the gun is your unless you have a sales reciept?
Can you take a picture of your guns and keep em just in case?
Would a personal serial number record be good enough?

What would be a good method to prove it's your gun?

I have sold very few in private sales to an individual. I have ALWAYS written receipts for both parties. I keep one with the other parties signature showing receipt of the firearm and I give one to them showing cash received for the firearm which I sign. Both receipts have a full description of the firearm with the serial number.

You should never buy/sell anything like that, cars, tvs, computors, jewelery, etc. without receipts.

 

[TexasRedneck]

You should never buy/sell anything like that, cars, tvs, computors, jewelery, etc. without receipts.

Glad that works for ya. One thing about it - you'll never hafta worry about ME buyin' a gun from you....unless yer an FFL an' have me fill out a form 4473, that's the ONLY way yer gonna record ANYTHING about a gun transaction I'm involved in. There is NO legal requirement for it, an' I won't allow anyone to have that kinda information without cause - nor do ah want it from them.

 

[OldCurlyWolf]

Then I would refuse to sell it to you. Those receipts are for my protection in case it gets used in an illegal way and for yours in case it is stolen or you are accused of stealing it. You would be REAL Stupid to buy a horse without a bill of sale. Why should you treat a firearm differently?

 

[majormadmax]

All of these are fine ideas but if you come to claim a weapon and have a serial # that matches the one the police have that is usually enough. No different than claiming a recovered TV or laptop or anything else. If more than one person claims to be the owner a hearing is set and a judge will decide.

I wish more people read this post, TC2! It seems like some folks believe more detailed paperwork is required, but the truth of the matter is that if a person has a basic description of the firearm and the serial number, there's not going to be much doubt that they are the owner! About the only concern would be one without a serial number, at which point engraving your TX DL somewhere discretely on it might not be a bad idea.

Cheers! M2

 

[TexasRedneck]

Then I would refuse to sell it to you. Those receipts are for my protection in case it gets used in an illegal way and for yours in case it is stolen or you are accused of stealing it. You would be REAL Stupid to buy a horse without a bill of sale. Why should you treat a firearm differently?

With all due respect, you wouldn't have the opportunity - I wouldn't even tender an offer under those terms. I've bought and sold guns my entire life, and have NEVER done as you do. Period. It's unnecessary, and IMO goes way beyond any legal requirement and/or need. But do as you want to - it's a free country. Someone breaks into your place, gets your sale records, and knows just where to go to get any gun that's ever passed through your hands....now, THAT would be stupid.

 

[Bithabus]

With all due respect, you wouldn't have the opportunity - I wouldn't even tender an offer under those terms. I've bought and sold guns my entire life, and have NEVER done as you do. Period. It's unnecessary, and IMO goes way beyond any legal requirement and/or need. But do as you want to - it's a free country. Someone breaks into your place, gets your sale records, and knows just where to go to get any gun that's ever passed through your hands....now, THAT would be stupid.

I agree. I would never consider buying a gun from someone who requires a "bill of sale" or wants to copy my DL. That defeats the point of FTF sales.

 

[Bithabus]

Then I would refuse to sell it to you. Those receipts are for my protection in case it gets used in an illegal way and for yours in case it is stolen or you are accused of stealing it. You would be REAL Stupid to buy a horse without a bill of sale. Why should you treat a firearm differently?

Our government is not frothing at the mouth to erode our right to keep and bear horses.

 

[Texan2]

Then I would refuse to sell it to you. Those receipts are for my protection in case it gets used in an illegal way and for yours in case it is stolen or you are accused of stealing it. You would be REAL Stupid to buy a horse without a bill of sale. Why should you treat a firearm differently?

How does this "protect" you? In my estimation it puts you in more peril.

 

[MR Redneck]

I really see no harm in filling out a bill of sale on a private transaction.
When people come by my shop trying to sell me stuff, I actually copy their license and make a bill of sale.
That way, if the shit turns up stolen I have proof of the sale. I actually think im required to do that by law. Is it too hard to do the same with a gun? It might be in your favor if the gun ever shows to have been used in a crime.
A private bill of sale is nothing more than buyer protection.

 

[Bithabus]

I really see no harm in filling out a bill of sale on a private transaction.
When people come by my shop trying to sell me stuff, I actually copy their license and make a bill of sale.
That way, if the shit turns up stolen I have proof of the sale. I actually think im required to do that by law. Is it too hard to do the same with a gun? It might be in your favor if the gun ever shows to have been used in a crime.
A private bill of sale is nothing more than buyer protection.

I don't mind signing a bill of sale if I am the seller. I would never give personal info such as my DL number though.

 

[majormadmax]

I really see no harm in filling out a bill of sale on a private transaction.
When people come by my shop trying to sell me stuff, I actually copy their license and make a bill of sale.
That way, if the shit turns up stolen I have proof of the sale. I actually think im required to do that by law. Is it too hard to do the same with a gun? It might be in your favor if the gun ever shows to have been used in a crime.
A private bill of sale is nothing more than buyer protection.

For one, I am interested in what law you think requires you to have proof of sale if something turns up stolen. I've never heard that one.

Secondly, the burden of proof is not on the prosecution; and as long as you legally sold the firearm whatever happens with it after that transaction is of no responsibility of the seller!

Show me a case where someone has legally sold a firearm in this state, and was later charged (they don't even have to be convicted, simply charged) with a crime that was committed by the person who bought it. I can't recall a single instance where that was the case.

Honestly, I don't mind giving a seller some basic information (name, address) for a bill of sale; but a copy of my license? Forget it! That is a quick trip to identity theft, and how can I trust that a seller will take all the proper precautions to protect that information? I will be more than happy to show my TX DL or CHL to someone as proof that I am legally able to purchase a firearm...I usually do so even if not asked, and even with people who know me and from whom I've purchased firearms before. But make a copy of my DL or CHL? No way!

Lastly, what says a private bill of sale cannot be forged or faked? Hell, people are making $50 bills out of $5 ones and they're passing notice of bank tellers; you can't be trying to convince me that it wouldn't be easy to do so with a receipt?

Cheers! M2

 

[medalguy]

I agree. I don't give out my personal information when buying a gun or when selling one. I will show a seller my CHL if he wants proof of my residency or proof that I'm able to buy a firearm (as if having cash in hand isn't sufficient!) but NO WAY are they making a copy of anything.

I record every serial number of every firearm that passes into or out of my hands(not many) and they are all in my computer with backups at my daughter's house. so if anything every gets stolen I have proof of when I bought it, where I bought it and MAYBE the seller's name but not always, and what I paid for it or what the vaslue of the trade was. Some firearms I have owned for over 50 years-- no way I have receipts for them.

 

[MR Redneck]

I don't mind signing a bill of sale if I am the seller. I would never give personal info such as my DL number though.

I have only bout a couple of guns from private individuals that I didnt know, got jacked everytime too.
The identity theft part makes the argument different. Althow I have never shown anyone other than a FFL my license, I have made a few people show me theirs. I make a copy of it too.
Even if I have no desire to use someones identity I guess that doesnt mean they wont screw with mine. " Good Point".
I still make dirtbags that bring stuff to my shop show me some Id. I copy it too, just in case somebodies stuff get reported stolen. " kinda like the time some methhead tried selling me his chainsaw that was still warm". Called the sheriff's department and a guy down the road just reported it stolen out of his front yard!
I guess their really isnt a perfect way to cover your ass.

 

[Bithabus]

I have only bout a couple of guns from private individuals that I didnt know, got jacked everytime too.

What do you mean by "got jacked"? My FTF experiences have been all positive.