Purchased a Gun from a Pawn Shop That Turned To Be Stolen

[TexasRedneck]

That was the reasoning behind my initial question - as I understand it, the law requires pawn shops to check for whether the gun is stolen as part of their purchase transaction from the guy they buy it from. If that's true, then they failed to perform their legal duties - which would make them liable. As a practical matter, I would imagine that they'd reverse the transaction anyway just to maintain good relations with their customers.

 

[txinvestigator]

That was the reasoning behind my initial question - as I understand it, the law requires pawn shops to check for whether the gun is stolen as part of their purchase transaction from the guy they buy it from. If that's true, then they failed to perform their legal duties - which would make them liable.

And a CIVIL court determines liability. The law that requires them to check for stolen is a law that can be enforced upon them, but I don't see reimbursment in that law.

Everyone here is assuming that the Pawn Shop failed to check. Before we jump off half -cocked, we would need to know when the gun was purchased or pawned. At that time, the pawn shop had to hold the gun for a set number of days and check with the police. Then, how many days did it sit in the shop before purchase? Finally, when was it reported stolen.

Only the answers to those questions can tell us if the Pawn Shop might be liable.

If the OP paid the Pawn Shop with a Credit or Debit Card, the OP can dispute the transaction and perhaps be refunded. It sucks to be out the money AND your gun.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Actually, not assuming - to me, question one is whether they have the responsibility to so check. It's my understanding that they do, but I'm not SURE of that, thence my earlier question. From there, yes - when was it reported stolen vs. when was it bought by the pawn shop, and from there, what remedy is allowed for in the law. In my mind, if they were required by law to check if it was stolen, and they didn't do so, they are in violation of law, and as such the transaction is voided by their actions. As a practical matter, I doubt they'd want to hold on to the money anyway, just for the sake of keeping a customer happy.

But one thing - Kudo's to the OP for checking on it and then doing the RIGHT thing.

 

[txinvestigator]

^^^ Agreed

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Would it be out of line to ask which Pawn Shop it was, seeing as you live in Houston?

 

[GlockontheRocks]

I worked in the Pawn shop industry for a number of years. We had that situation happen more than once. It is a pain in the glutes for the customer. They will have to obtain a police report, bring it in. We refunded the money or issued credit depending on what the customer wanted. The pawn shop takes a chance on the items it receives. A thief usually knows that each and every item sold to or pawned, a copy goes to the local PD.

 

[pyrat]

My bank has told me that if I do not get a refund from the pawn shop they will reverse the transaction as it is a Federal Felony to sell a stolen firearm. Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law.

Excellent Cigardog99, glad to hear that.

Huh? What paperwork?

ATF F 4473, specifically block 22.

 

[Clockwork]

My bank has told me that if I do not get a refund from the pawn shop they will reverse the transaction as it is a Federal Felony to sell a stolen firearm. Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law.

Wow, well that's good to know. At least you can get your money back. If it were an honest mistake on the part of the pawnshop I would think that they ought to be willing to refund you, being as that it is a felony and all...

 

[Texan2]

ATF F 4473, specifically block 22.

I think his point was that you said something about "when the paperwork gets sent in." As I understand it 4473s remains at the dealer. Sending those to the government would be a gun registration.

 

[Renegade]

Excellent Cigardog99, glad to hear that.



ATF F 4473, specifically block 22.

4473 do not get sent in.

Block 22 is the Certification for NFA?

If you mean NICS check, SN info is NOT transmitted with during NICS.

 

[pawncop]

Several issues to be addressed here.

1. Pawn Shops do not have access to NCIC, they never have and probably never will.

2. Pawn Shops do not want to be enforcers. They want to make money. They believe, correctly I think, that if they are perceived as an agent of law enforcement, people will not do business with them. Can you imagine the response from a customer when the shop tells them they are taking their gun because it is reported stolen. I have had citizens very upset with me, becme angry and held it in check because I'm police.

3. Almost all police agencies do not want the extra work of running guns for a business. It is wrong in principle and opens a door that should not be opened. If this should happen what is to stop used car dealers, second hand dealers, etc, etc, etc.

I am very sorry for the OP's situation. I have been in the same situation. I bought a rifle from my brother in law that turned out to be stolen, and surrendered it to the local sheriff's office (where I used to work) and took all kinds of ribbing for a while over that one.

There is no simple answer for this problem. I feel certain that the pawn shop would not knowingly take in a gun that was stolen. If they did, there are ways of dealing with them. They have a regulatory agency in Texas that can pull their license in a heartbeat and they know it.

I continue to advocate for an independant data base where citizen's can list the serial numbers for ther stolen firearms and making that data base known to all in the firearms industry and consumers.

Feel free to disagree and/or contact me offline if you have any questions.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Thanks, Pawncop - you make good points, but most importantly you answer the question at hand - the pawnshop has no legal responsibility to ensure that the gun isn't stolen, and therefore has no legal culpability. A moral one, but not a legal one.

OP, how about an update on this?

 

[TexasRedneck]

and what if I happen to get pulled over and my car is searched and a stolen gun turns up? I respectfully disagree Team TGT. And Texas Redneck, I had no reason to believe it was a stolen gun, however, I think you are always better safe than sorry.

Had that happened, you would have answered questions about how it came to be in your possession, and that would have been the end of it. It happens more often than you think.

 

[pyrat]

Thanks, Pawncop - you make good points, but most importantly you answer the question at hand - the pawnshop has no legal responsibility to ensure that the gun isn't stolen, and therefore has no legal culpability. A moral one, but not a legal one.

OP, how about an update on this?

§85.418. ACCEPTANCE OF GOODS. (a) Monitoring of transactions and customers.
(4) Responsibility. The pawnbroker must monitor goods in order to identify and prohibit transactions involving stolen goods and must make reasonable efforts to avoid accepting stolen goods.

85.418(4) would seem to indicate otherwise. It would be up to the court in a specific instance to determine what reasonable was and if the pawn shop met that requirement.

http://www.occc.state.tx.us/pages/Legal/Laws/Pawn/rule.pdf

 

[pawncop]

pyrat,

In the statute, monitoring is not defined. The present practice, at least in my area, is to lockout (no longer do business) with an individual that has pawned or sold property that turns out to be stolen. This can have unintended consquences if the pawner/seller is just the last person that ended up with the property. I have had many cases where this is the issue. The property is bought used, and may have passed through several hands before it ends up in the pawn shop. The bottom line is that the shop does not have a mechanism to check the goods brought in. Let me stress that the vast, vast majority of the shops will not take goods if they strongly suspect there is any chance the goods are stolen. They know they will lose money when I or one of my fellow cops seize the property. Remember, they want to make money and taking stolen goods does not make money.

There are instances, fairly uncommon, when we are looking for an individual and we will alert the shops to be cautious regardng the individual. I do not like doing this unless I am VERY certain the person is a strong suspect in an offense(s). I do not make accusations lightly, and do wish to taint anyone unless I am absolutely certainthat I can make my case in court.

I again want to share that this situation happens very frequently and right now there is not a good solution to the problem. I wish that there were.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Funny....I just spoke with the OCCC, and they stated flatly, without equivocation, that the pawn shop IS responsible for refunding the money to someone that buys what turns out to be stolen property from a pawn shop, on the basis that the pawn shop is responsible for having sold stolen goods, which is illegal - and by doing so, must refund the funds. Period. TXI, Pawncop - don't holler at me - I honestly thought it was a case of "buyer beware", but according to OCCC it's not the case.

 

[txinvestigator]

Who is the OCCC? And I am all for learning something I didn't know. SO where might I find the law that requires a pawn shop refunnd money if a sold item turns out to be stolen? I'd like to read it so as to get it right.

 

[mtaylor]

I continue to advocate for an independant data base where citizen's can list the serial numbers for ther stolen firearms and making that data base known to all in the firearms industry and consumers.

There is. It's called hotgunz.com and stolenweapon.com

Of course, it existence is not widely known and use is voluntary. I check all used guns passing through my place with one of these.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Who is the OCCC? And I am all for learning something I didn't know. SO where might I find the law that requires a pawn shop refunnd money if a sold item turns out to be stolen? I'd like to read it so as to get it right.

Office of Consumer Credit Commissioner. They have oversight/regulatory authority over Pawnshops. As noted, I was surprised at the VERY blunt response I got from their agent, who was quite clear in his statement that the pawnshop would have to refund the money. I was on the road when he returned my call, so bear with me - but paraphrasing, it went:

"The pawnshop can only sell items that are legally obtained. Since the property was stolen, they did NOT have the legal right to sell it, because they weren't the lawful owners. They have to refund the money."

 

[TXTrophyhunter]

Hi Everyone,

I will try and help here. I have 23 years in the pawn shop business in Dallas. All cities have certain regulations concerning pawn shops. (Dallas)Purchased items are held for a period of 21 days before being able to sell. This allows law enforcement(DPD Pawn Detail Unit) time to run all transactions against the NCIC for stolen property. They come in once a week to pick up their copy of all transactions taken in. Most pawn shops also do an electronic upload of all transactions via Leadsonline which is searchable nationwide by law enforcement. We cannot knowingly pawn or purchase any stolen items. If we have reason to believe it is stolen then we will pass on the transaction.

I have had the same thing occur. We loaned on a shotgun and it went 90 days in pawn and another 12 days on the for sale rack before being purchased. The customer went to Louisiana gambling and had loads of fun. On their way back home they were stopped for weaving and failure to maintain a lane. They were eventually arrested for dui and marijuana in excess of 2 oz. During the following search of their car the shotgun I sold was retrieved from the trunk and the serial number ran. It came back stolen from Benbrook. I offered a full refund upon notification from the police department that we had sold a firearm that been reported stolen. Do things slip through the cracks sometimes, apparently so. It was not my fault selling them the gun but it was my responsibility to make it right.