SHOTGUN “Experts” (A Rant)

[1911'S 4 Me]

Academy has Maverick 88's for $219 and $229.

 

[Txhighlander]

People just don’t know. Ain’t their fault. Military, le, security, many over dramatize because it’s human nature to love attention.

I’m nothing special. Just been good at surviving. My current job is a human target; armored driver/guard in South Dallas. I realized how little I knew before. A lot of it can only be taught by handling a situation and improving on it for the next time unfortunately.

I often tell people now that the best training methods aren’t always with guns. It’s working hard to be alert, see danger before it gets too close, learning patterns criminals have, NOT avoiding eye contact, all things that’s easy to say but methods can’t really be articulated until after dealing with them.

Been there did that in that area over 30 years ago. You learn quickly if you want to survive that paying attention to detail matters.

As to the shotgun, I have never been a fan but late in life I am learning. I have a friend who prefers shotgun and is highly skilled and surgical with one that is teaching me. It is different. I have owned a few pump guns but now an o/u and a semi is in the house. I will probably pick up another pump in the future but other projects demand more attention.

 

[benenglish]

Best advice I can give new shooters taking any class is don’t attend if instructors get over tactical, intense, and act as know it all operators. Some are full of hot air and couldn’t teach a dog to lick his own nuts.

I agree but many people don't. Witness how even some folks here on TGT are so dismissive of any instructor who hasn't carried a badge or spent time in a war zone.

 

[MountainGirl]

I don’t think of a Maverick 88 as a cheap shoty. In-expensive yes, cheap no.

When used properly those things are like the Energizer Bunny. They just keep going & going.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

My guy said to tell ya -

"I've had the 88 for close to 30 years, bought it at a pawn shop for maybe $99, the guy had boxes and boxes of them, 12ga, pistol grip, and it goes bang every time I pull the trigger. Never had an issue with it, it's been a good gun. Inexpensive, not cheap. Cheap implies crap. If you're on a budget and need a good shotgun I'd recommend it."

-And that's the last time I'm gonna type for him. I gave him the link to here, he's been reading, and now it's on him to join TGT, or not.

 

[benenglish]

Imagine my disillusionment when I first tried to use my Moss 500 in 3-gun competition and discovered that the action won't cycle if I held pressure back on the slide while pulling the trigger. I had such a puzzled look that a fellow shooter informed me that on that particular pump gun, you have to push the slide forward or at least hold it in place while pulling the trigger. No pre-loading of the action for rapid fire.

I'm terrible with a shotgun, the proverbial "couldn't hit the side of a barn if I was standing inside." What little experience I have is with a Model 12.

That said, what you describe sounds to me like a defective design.

 

[Sam7sf]

I agree but many people don't. Witness how even some folks here on TGT are so dismissive of any instructor who hasn't carried a badge or spent time in a war zone.

It’s case by case.

You will find serious cringe in security but often the same sources are used with le. It’s less standards and questions in security. I think le is up to almost 700 questions now. Security is half. And I have listened to some real crazy shit.

A lot of questions to some are common sense. Not trying to sound smart or rip on others but recently a former cop and I had a conversation and this wonderful weather came up. Freezing came up. I had to explain to him 32 degrees was freezing. Again I’m the dumbest smart person or smartest dumb person but I’ll listen and things that used to be common knowledge isn’t anymore. Be it a man changing his oil, knowing how to sharpen your own chainsaw blade, freezing is 32 degrees, I’ll explain to adults how dew point works with air molecules.

Not long ago I was pointing a suspicious person out. I said 12 o clock (he’s right in front of us) guy looks at our 3 o clock. 12 dude 12 o clock. “Where”?

I have found as I’m getting older I get shit from the younger guys about certain things but suddenly no one says anything when I’m holding their hand in the field. A lot of the youngsters need a game plan for everything and freak out over any deviation. I spent a lot of years leading crews when things go south making a plan as you go spreading the mindset we won’t fail. Times have changed.

I’m rambling. I’m only dismissive of any instructors that smell of bullshido. Can be self defense to armed training. I’m also critical of the ones that can’t teach and can’t make student’s feel welcome.

Down the road I can see myself becoming an instructor but focusing on new to firearms type students. Set em up for a basic foundation they can build on and go elsewhere.

 

[Eastexasrick]

I’m rambling.

The OP is a rant. I would call your soliloquy more along the way of thinking out loud, or " musing". A very positive form of rambling.

 

[Axxe55]

The OP is a rant. I would call your soliloquy more along the way of thinking out loud, or " musing". A very positive form of rambling.

op is always a rambler

 

[Eastexasrick]

op is always a rambler

Sam

 

[seeker_two]

I agree but many people don't. Witness how even some folks here on TGT are so dismissive of any instructor who hasn't carried a badge or spent time in a war zone.

I'm the opposite. Much of the time, former LEO & SPEC-OPS instructors don't teach things that the general public can apply to their lives. I find instructors with a background in executive protection or general security tend to offer more applicable knowledge. I'd take one of Sam's classes in a heartbeat.

 

[cycleguy2300]

>

I criticize them mainly (only) on topics of pump shotguns and tourniquets.

Our Baby is a Police Detective, firearms instructor, and alternate range manager. An Alum of Austin Westlake High.

We support our LEO’s and will back them in an emergency.

I watch & learn from Ayoub & others, love the videos. Just that I’ve never seen a Cop operate a pump properly in one of those videos.

And, from my standpoint, it is not “ignorant”.

I often use both PD & SO ranges, treat those Guys to lunch, and have them in our home w/ “Baby”. I get lots of advice on rifles from them.

BTW, “Baby” is a 46yo USMC M.P. Sergeant, now semi-permanently attached to ATF. He has 4 children and we finally talked him out of SWAT, but he still goes on “forced entries” for the Feds. And, Baby uses an 870SF properly when hunting. Back when he was a “Patrol” Officer & did traffic stops, I gave him my 870 Police Folder, which he sling carried up to stopped vehicles.

Thank you for your service in the PRoTC.

leVieux
.

Again TQs are PROVEN in the field. The data on how lives are lost in combat shows simply bleeding out, from bleeds that could have been controlled with a TQ or packing are significant.

Your experience and abilities in a hospital setting does not carry over to what is practical to do in the field.

Military and police focus on TQs, packing wounds and chest seals is because it is simple and fast to apply and it deals with the greatest threat to them dying before they can get to a hospital with nearly no risk of additional harm if it wasn't needed..

TQs are far from the only option in the field, pressure, packing, chest seals are all trained, practiced and used, to great effect, greater effect than anything short of a trauma surgeon with an OR and a suite of tools and a huge team... but try lugging that around in your pockets.

Надіслано з дому вашої мами за допомогою Tapatalk

 

[Sam7sf]

I'm the opposite. Much of the time, former LEO & SPEC-OPS instructors don't teach things that the general public can apply to their lives. I find instructors with a background in executive protection or general security tend to offer more applicable knowledge. I'd take one of Sam's classes in a heartbeat.

Appreciate the compliment.

I look at it this way: someone will always have something to teach us.

The country has become unsafe and I think anyone would agree. I may learn something from le or military but I don’t confuse that with thinking I’m some big bad operator. Military and le have lots of things to show us but I’d say because of the legal limitations put on security, security tends to encourage more people skills and creativity. Your mindset also changes to let’s help keep folks safe, ourselves safe, and avoid danger by various methods.

You definitely build working relationships. Guys at Dallas and dart help put extra eyes on things and I try to let em know we love em.

Security is a special line between knowing how to talk to people while being viewed as a hard target.

 

[leVieux]

Yeah...not buyin that, either.

If your brother lived his life the way he wanted, and it sure sounds like he did, it wasn't 'wasted' at all imo, except maybe by others' judgements.

If you want to know what someone wants - just look around at what they have.

Well, crap - now we're really off your topic, but it's your thread so there ya go.

Again TQs are PROVEN in the field. The data on how lives are lost in combat shows simply bleeding out, from bleeds that could have been controlled with a TQ or packing are significant.

Your experience and abilities in a hospital setting does not carry over to what is practical to do in the field.

Military and police focus on TQs, packing wounds and chest seals is because it is simple and fast to apply and it deals with the greatest threat to them dying before they can get to a hospital with nearly no risk of additional harm if it wasn't needed..

TQs are far from the only option in the field, pressure, packing, chest seals are all trained, practiced and used, to great effect, greater effect than anything short of a trauma surgeon with an OR and a suite of tools and a huge team... but try lugging that around in your pockets.

Надіслано з дому вашої мами за допомогою Tapatalk

Of course tourniquets are useful if and when needed. I just think their use is overstressed for civilian use.

 

[Sam7sf]

Of course tourniquets are useful if and when needed. I just think their use is overstressed for civilian use.

Maybe not. I’m going to order one for work and most of my work stuff stays in my car. I only leave gear in the car because where I travel to are secure locations. Work, church (safety team watches) and home. Now…civilians might want to get trained up on using a tourniquet. It can take what…18 seconds and you can pass out and die? Under 20 seconds…and it could be over. Now, I’m sure the odds are astronomically low depending on where you live you would need one but consider you may need one without getting into a gun fight. Hiking, camping, working, gun fire that ain’t intended for you. Shit happens. Food for thought. It’s medical equipment not tactical gear.

 

[leVieux]

Maybe not. I’m going to order one for work and most of my work stuff stays in my car. I only leave gear in the car because where I travel to are secure locations. Work, church (safety team watches) and home. Now…civilians might want to get trained up on using a tourniquet. It can take what…18 seconds and you can pass out and die? Under 20 seconds…and it could be over. Now, I’m sure the odds are astronomically low depending on where you live you would need one but consider you may need one without getting into a gun fight. Hiking, camping, working, gun fire that ain’t intended for you. Shit happens. Food for thought. It’s medical equipment not tactical gear.

My original point was not that tourniquets “don’t work”; that is a “straw man”.

From what I have learned during my lifetime in Emergency Medicine and Vascular Intervention, including some two decades of teaching young Physicians, plus 7 years as a USAR Army Physician; I try to make two points:

1). Respiratory airway emergencies are hundreds of times more frequent than any real need for a tourniquet in civilian outpatient emergency management.

2). Most Physicians & Surgeons recommend layperson control of active bleeding by direct compression applied just above a bleeder, towards the heart. This method is usually effective; and is much, much less likely to cause the serious permanent injuries associated with tourniquets.

My comments were not intended to apply to military battlefields.

I wish you-all a nice & peaceful Christmas.

leVieux
.

 

[Sam7sf]

My original point was not that tourniquets “don’t work”; that is a “straw man”.

From what I have learned during my lifetime in Emergency Medicine and Vascular Intervention, including some two decades of teaching young Physicians, plus 7 years as a USAR Army Physician; I try to make two points:

1). Respiratory airway emergencies are hundreds of times more frequent than any real need for a tourniquet in civilian outpatient emergency management.

2). Most Physicians & Surgeons recommend layperson control of active bleeding by direct compression applied just above a bleeder, towards the heart. This method is usually effective; and is much, much less likely to cause the serious permanent injuries associated with tourniquets.

My comments were not intended to apply to military battlefields.

I wish you-all a nice & peaceful Christmas.

leVieux
.

You too hope you and the family have a wonderful Christmas.

All your points are great. I would simply rebuttal a tourniquet takes little space. Throw one in a med kit.

Now I don’t have the medical knowledge you have. So I’ll use an analogy with camping or survival. I have never had to use a flare other than starting a campfire out of enjoyment. Little flares that take up such small space in my gear. With my outdoor experience I could convince myself not to bring em but why chance it? Let’s make up a low number. Half a percent chance I’ll be hit by gunfire today. Maybe way lower. The funny thing about the universe or god depending on what you believe, is sometimes the odds are in your favor but somehow someone ends up in that half a percent. Someone has to otherwise the math wouldn’t be needed. So who’s the unlucky one?

 

[leVieux]

Maybe not. I’m going to order one for work and most of my work stuff stays in my car. I only leave gear in the car because where I travel to are secure locations. Work, church (safety team watches) and home. Now…civilians might want to get trained up on using a tourniquet. It can take what…18 seconds and you can pass out and die? Under 20 seconds…and it could be over. Now, I’m sure the odds are astronomically low depending on where you live you would need one but consider you may need one without getting into a gun fight. Hiking, camping, working, gun fire that ain’t intended for you. Shit happens. Food for thought. It’s medical equipment not tactical gear.

OK, fine; but let me tell of my experience with carrying medical emergency supplies.

The last 3 years I was a GP/FP/EM Doc, I carried the full BanYan double emergency kit cases in my car trunk. I also carried them offshore on fishing trips.

Those are very expensive but have extensive equipment and supplies: child & adult ETT’s, O2, several laryngoscopes, a portable suction, medications, including narcotics (requiring a federal permit), surgical supplies, a defibrillator, etc.

The two boxes were never opened.

One more observation: I, and many others, have learned to not interfere with modern EMT/Paramedic emergencies, as their training, experience, and equipment have improved tremendously since the 1970’s. Now, I’ll look, maybe tell the head guy or girl “I am a licensed Physician; I’ll stand-by a while if you need anything.”. Their only usual need would be for a drug order, but even that is rare with. modern communications.

leVieux
.

 

[seeker_two]

The part that gets me with these "experts" trauma kits is that they have the TQs, chest seals, and QuikClot.....but they have nothing to treat a basic cut. They carry these packs for major wounds, but neglect packing bandaids, alcohol swabs, hand sanitizer, or triple-antibiotic ointment.

Which injuries are you and your family most likely to encounter on a daily basis?

 

[leVieux]

The part that gets me with these "experts" trauma kits is that they have the TQs, chest seals, and QuikClot.....but they have nothing to treat a basic cut. They carry these packs for major wounds, but neglect packing bandaids, alcohol swabs, hand sanitizer, or triple-antibiotic ointment.

Which injuries are you and your family most likely to encounter on a daily basis?

>

To answer, are we talking minor “emergencies”, or unanticipated life-threatening events ?

And, where will those be; home or travel ?

?
.

 

[seeker_two]

>

To answer, are we talking minor “emergencies”, or unanticipated life-threatening events ?

And, where will those be; home or travel ?

?
.

What do you encounter more often? It depends on one's area and lifestyle. I would say that, for many people, they would be better off using the space to carry an EpiPen or asthma inhaler than a TQ....