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Sig P226 vs. Beretta 92FS - Army Trials

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  • Texas1911

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    Just read the entire document regarding the army trials for a pistol in the 80s. Here's some take-aways from the article and testing.

    1) The Sig scored slightly higher than the Beretta.

    2) Beretta dropped it's price 18% at the last minute, presumably because it may have obtained leaked price info from the Sig bid. Originally the total cost for the Beretta contract was $84 Million, and the Sig bid was $75 Million.

    3) Only the Sig and Beretta passed the technical and reliability standards. The HK P7M13, S&W 459M, Walther P88, Colt SSP, FN-Herstal BDA, and Steyr GB all failed or were withdrawn voluntarily.

    4) The Sig pistol was cheaper even after the 18% price drop. The difference in cost on the final contract was only $3 Million, all in the cost of magazines and spare parts.

    5) The choice to adopt 9mm was solely on the basis of NATO and domestic caliber standardization. Congress denied funding for a continuation of the M1911A1 and any .45 ACP related programs to force the JSO to make this decision.

    6) Testing consisted of a field trial of 275,000 rounds done to test the performance of 30 guns (sometimes as few as 2 of each make) in dust, mud, sand, and salt water. Further testing included temperature variables (hot / cold) and testing by personnel of differing size, gender, and experience.

    7) The Army stated quite clearly that .38 caliber revolvers; "have inadequate overall effectiveness; poor maintainability and life expectancy in combat conditions, low-lethality, poor reliability, lack of rapid reloading ability, and small ammunition capacity."

    8) HK's P7M13 lowest score on the conditional reliability testing was 99%. It blew the doors off of the Sig P226 and Beretta 92. It scored a 100% on the dust test.

    9) The Sig suffered in the dry mud environment, but scored more than 50% higher on the standard reliability testing than the Beretta. The Sig P226 scored a 2,877 to the Beretta's 1,750 to the Colt M1911A1s 162. The numbers reflect the average number of rounds fired between stoppages.

    10) Two of the five pistols submitted in 1981 for reliability testing by Beretta accounted for two-thirds of the malfunctions.

    11) Reliability between each lot of guns and the individual guns in the lot varied on a factor of 300 - 1400%; that's just comparing Sig to Sig, Beretta to Beretta.

    12) The Sig P226 originally in 1981 had a significant issue with the shape of it's firing pin causing a large number of failures to fire. It was reshaped (sharpened) for the 1984 trial and eliminated the issue.

    13) You can fire approximately 6,253 rounds through a Sig P226 before the frame cracks with no maintenance. In comparison, the M1911A1 control frame failed at around 3,500 rounds.

    14) Sig originally had no frame failures in the 7,000 round testing in 1981. The frame was milled out to improve mud and debris performance, and the resulting hollow sections are where the cracks propagated. Thus, pre-1981 Sigs are certainly more reliable in a long term environment.

    15) In the 1984 reliability testing, the Sig P226 had only one malfunction that required an armorer and finished with a total of 12 stoppages. The Beretta had 20 stoppages, with 9 of them requiring an armorer. Thus, you have a near 50% chance that within 1,700 rounds your Beretta 92 will suffer a complete malfunction and require significant maintenance. I can attest from personal experience that this is true of the commercial 92FS from a hard use perspective. The predominance is frame cracking.

    16) The M1911A1 had a mean round count of 162 between stoppages, and had a total of 220 stoppages; only 25 required an armorer. I suspect frame cracking was a large part of the issue with the M1911 due to their reliance upon the recoil spring to provide sufficient dampening to the slide during the recoil phase.

    17) The Sig P226's firing pin invariably caused roughly 70% of the failures in the 1981 trial.

    18) Beretta USA at the time purchased the pistols from Italy for $178.50, and sold them at a retail price of $515.

    19) There was significant posturing and lobbying from the Italian government in favor of awarding the contract to Beretta. It was seen that this could be averted by awarding the contract to Beretta USA on the notion that eventually the pistols would be made in Accucreek, MD.

    20) The trials were done half-assed and with numerous holes in the methods of testing. The Army and Air Force did not have a standardized method for testing the guns, and relied upon "better than M1911" performance standards as the basis of the testing. As a result, some of the testing numbers were overlooked such as the Sig dry mud testing due to testing methodology shortcomings.

    21) Sig sued the US on the basis that the number of replacement parts was not aligned with reliability figures. The significantly more reliable P226 required no replacement parts in 5,000 rounds, yet the pricing quotations stipulated a set number of parts, and in some instances those parts were double counted due to being difficult to field fit, small in size (easily lost), and other variables. The trial was thrown out.

    In the end, the US Army should have awarded Sig (SACO) the contract on the basis that it was a more reliable and more cost effective gun. It would seem that the SEALs chose the wiser option in the long run.
    Target Sports
     

    double_r76

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    Just read the entire document regarding the army trials for a pistol in the 80s. Here's some take-aways from the article and testing.

    14) Sig originally had no frame failures in the 7,000 round testing in 1981. The frame was milled out to improve mud and debris performance, and the resulting hollow sections are where the cracks propagated. Thus, pre-1981 Sigs are certainly more reliable in a long term environment.

    Was the frame milled out on all production P226 pistols from 1981 forward, or were the frames just milled out on the guns submitted for the XM-9 pistols trials? Wasn't the Glock 17 submitted for the trials as well, and were there any significant take-aways from that?

    Can you get the same report for the XM-11 pistol trials? You know, the one where the Sig P228 beat out the Beretta 92FS Centurion Type-M... I'm glad it won, but I'm extremely curious to see how that competition went!!! I've heard urban legend that part of Sig winning that one was based on magazine capacity and the other part was DoD making up for the lost XM-9 competition.

    Thanks,
    -Randy
     

    Texas42

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    Now with all the "Sig 226 killed Osama," I'm never going to find a Sig 226 at a reasonable price for at least a decade.

    Very interesting. Thanks for the post.
     

    woolleyworm

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    My Sigs will be the last things that ever leave me; Never ever been a fan of the Berettas and never will be. They're ok guns, I won't knock anyone that owns one, but they're just not what I find to be well built tools.
     

    crabbys44

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    Couple all of that with catastrophic slide failures from Berettas and mandatory slide replacements every 1,000 rounds is why I bought my first SIG in the '80's and never allowed a Beretta in my home (even when I won one in competition, traded it for a Glock that very day). That and the fact that my best friend in High School was an armorer on SEAL Team 2 when they adopted the P-226 over the POS Beretta.

    You know the "S" in 92FS means "safe?" The hammer pin was enlarged so when the slide broke (not IF; from Beretta's own literature), it would stay on the frame instead of hitting you in the face.

    The Border Patrol issued me a freaking Beretta 96. On graduating I carried the SIG P-229 (the only authorized personally owned firearm allowed) and had it modified to USBP specs (.40 S&W, DAO, night sights, 6 spare mags). It is shorter in height and length the the 96 AND has higher capacity. The 96's had to be inspected quarterly before every qualification to make sure you weren't going to eat any of it. The SIG wasn't even glanced at.

    BTW Rumor Control said the Assistant Chief that saddled us with the Beretta (even though it was NOT in contention for the contract) immediately retired and was placed on Berreta's board.
     

    Texas1911

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    Was the frame milled out on all production P226 pistols from 1981 forward, or were the frames just milled out on the guns submitted for the XM-9 pistols trials? Wasn't the Glock 17 submitted for the trials as well, and were there any significant take-aways from that?

    Glock did not build the G17 until 1982, and the G17 was not submitted to the trials in 1984. I suspect that Glock did not have the manufacturing ability at that time to fulfill the US order, but the Glock most certainly would have won the contract on the basis of weight, reliability, and cost, in my opinion.

    I'm not aware if the mill cuts made it to production Sigs, or if it was XM-9 specific. That would be a good topic for another thread if we can find someone with a P226 from that era.

    Can you get the same report for the XM-11 pistol trials? You know, the one where the Sig P228 beat out the Beretta 92FS Centurion Type-M... I'm glad it won, but I'm extremely curious to see how that competition went!!! I've heard urban legend that part of Sig winning that one was based on magazine capacity and the other part was DoD making up for the lost XM-9 competition.

    I can go look it up, but suffice to say politics seems to be rife with military contracts ... as to be expected.
     

    Dcav

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    I always thought Sig's were over-priced and not worth the money, until I bought one, very accurate, and ultra reliable.
     

    Texas1911

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    I always thought Sig's were over-priced and not worth the money, until I bought one, very accurate, and ultra reliable.

    Evidently in the 1980s it only cost $150 to manufacture a Sig P226 ... yet now they are $800+. There's a bit of a profit margin in a Sig these days from what I can gather. Someone's gotta pay for all that advertising and new machinery.
     

    Texas1911

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    Great info, thanks!

    Never been a big fan of the Beretta, would have much rather have had the Sig...

    Cheers! M2

    The Air Force pushed hard for the XM-9 program, mostly because they wanted a more compact 9mm handgun. The Army had no real interest in the program, but Congress insisted. Ultimately the Air Force would get their compact 9mm as a Sig P228 over the Beretta Centurion. Kinda an odd turn of events.
     

    shipwreck

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    Well, there is so much info, both real and unreal on this subject... I don't know if all of that info is true or not. But, I know several Beretta owners, and hell, I have eight 92 variants myself. I have owned over 50 handguns since 1993... With all the buying and selling I have done. So, I have a lot of experience with handguns.

    I was always on the search for for the next great gun.I would never have bought eight of the same gun in the past. But now, the 92 platform is my all time fav. With the hogue grip panels and the undercut trigger guard, I love the way the gun feels in a one handed grip... I have a custom 1911, and even had an Ed Brown 1911 until recently (i sold it a couple of months ago). I find that I like the feel of the 92 more than the 1911... Sacrilege, I know - hahaha...

    Anyway, I could carry anything I wanted, but like the 92...

    The gun is a great gun. Change the recoil and trigger return spring every 5k, and the locking block every 15-20k, and the gun will last. It's not a POS some guys like to make it out to be... But, believe what ya want...if I did not trust the gun, I wouldn't have eight of them and carry one everyday.

    I'm not here to debate the topic or sell anyone on one. But, I just wanted to show another point of view...
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    The P226 is a much higher quality, hands down. Berettas are fine, but the P226 is a step up. The only thing I have a very significant problem with, and I feel is a poor design, is the slide mounted safety on the Beretta. They should have stuck to frame mounted. Slide mounted causes so many manipulation issues for lots of people. Our military would be much better off with the P226 or a G17 (G17 would be awesome from a logistics standpoint).
     

    M. Sage

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    Yeah, I've always hated that slide-mounted safety/decocker. Why do they think it should be both? If it's a safety, it should allow you to carry cocked and locked, if it's a decocker, just drop the hammer and let the trigger work. But to drop the hammer and lock the trigger? Whose idea was that?
     

    IXLR8

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    My experience with 92's is less than satisfactory (sorry Shipwreck). But with the open top, they are easy to clear. It is easily the pistol with the most misfeeds, of any that I have handled. Perhaps the one I used was just poorly maintained. It would be impossible to believe that issued 92's perform as poorly as the one I used, people would be killed by adversaries using them.

    I am in the market for a P226. I wish that I had bought one before the Osama deal....
     

    wgsigs

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    Was the frame milled out on all production P226 pistols from 1981 forward, or were the frames just milled out on the guns submitted for the XM-9 pistols trials?
    I believe that they were in production guns for a short period of time. I have read on SigForum about some SIG guns with scalloped cut-outs along the frame rails that were referred to as "mud" rails. I guess this is where they got that name. SIGs with mud rails are not as desirable as they are rumored to be more likely to suffer cracks in the frame.
     

    slammr

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    If this report is that old (1984 ?), then it has no relevance. Materials and manufacturing techniques have changed a lot in 25 + years.
     
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