Sig P226 vs. Beretta 92FS - Army Trials

[M. Sage]

If this report is that old (1984 ?), then it has no relevance. Materials and manufacturing techniques have changed a lot in 25 + years.

Have they significantly redesigned either pistol?

 

[crabbys44]

The Air Force pushed hard for the XM-9 program, mostly because they wanted a more compact 9mm handgun. The Army had no real interest in the program, but Congress insisted. Ultimately the Air Force would get their compact 9mm as a Sig P228 over the Beretta Centurion. Kinda an odd turn of events.

The Air Force got us straddled with the M-16 because the Air Force General wanted a light weight weapon for his security types. Look how many troops are currently carrying M14s in battle.

 

[London]

Not sure how true this is; but rumor has it Beretta got the contract because Italy wanted to make a mint and the U.S. wanted a military base in Italy. Quid pro quo?

 

[jtriron]

OK OK I will now KEEP my 226, even though my gen 1 G17 is a better shooter. ( Sage grimaces as reading this......... just kidding) The P226 is a great gun period.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Have they significantly redesigned either pistol?

Since then I believe the Beretta has gone through a few improvements, such as the thicker firing pin to prevent the rear of the slide from coming off, and I thought something to do with the slide to reinforce it? The Sigs, since I think the early 2000's, the slide is completely different. Except for the P228R and P225 (folded/pressed slide w/ removable breech block, the old style), all the new P220/226/229's and their variants have a CNC'd slide (again, IIRC, but not 100%), and now an external extractor for all of them. The frames are probably similar, but the other half is completely different, and in many ways improved.

 

[dobarker]

That really stuns me about the 1911A1 having such trouble. The first one I built (an econo rattle trap) went 500 rounds without oil or cleaning and no malfunctions and is now at 2100 rounds with nothing but field strip cleaning and no malfunctions.
With the tests being swayed a little, would it have been possible that the test 1911's were tampered with a little to make them give shoddy results?

It just makes me wonder a bit when Marine Recon teams are still equipped with A1's.

 

[M. Sage]

Since then I believe the Beretta has gone through a few improvements, such as the thicker firing pin to prevent the rear of the slide from coming off, and I thought something to do with the slide to reinforce it? The Sigs, since I think the early 2000's, the slide is completely different. Except for the P228R and P225 (folded/pressed slide w/ removable breech block, the old style), all the new P220/226/229's and their variants have a CNC'd slide (again, IIRC, but not 100%), and now an external extractor for all of them. The frames are probably similar, but the other half is completely different, and in many ways improved.

Yeah, I forgot about the changes to the Sig slides. Have they all gone to external extractors? My (milled slide) P220 is internal...

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Yep, now they're all external. There was a crossover period where I believe only the P220's still had an internal extractor with the new slide, but with the stainless versions, I believe they also had a stainless internal extractor that just would not hold up properly and was creating extraction issues. I might be a bit off on that, but that's what I remember. Now they're all external, which is a superior design overall. Easy maintenance, less stress on the actual extractor, cheaper to replace, etc. That's why I'm so excited about the new S&W E-type 1911 with the Performance Center external extractor. It's getting some favorable initial reviews by those that know what they're doing (Hilton Yam), so who knows? That platform may have just been properly updated and might be good to go for another 100yrs.

 

[TheDan]

I used to covet the 92FS. At one point I owned both a 92FS and a P226. I still own the P226

That really stuns me about the 1911A1 having such trouble. The first one I built (an econo rattle trap) went 500 rounds without oil or cleaning and no malfunctions...

The most reliable 1911's are the cheap rattle trap ones, lol...

 

[San Antone RR]

18) Beretta USA at the time purchased the pistols from Italy for $178.50, and sold them at a retail price of $515.

Insane markup.

 

[Texas1911]

Insane markup.

Pretty typical actually.

They are selling them to wholesalers for probably $350 each, then of that money they make they are having to pay taxes, employees, marketing budgets, sponsorships, buildings, etc.

Like anything, when you look at it you're buying more than just the materials and labor involved. Advertising on this forum isn't paying for the hosting fees, it's also paying for stuff like the $150 in ammo and gas to test the Accuracy International, the $900 camcorder, $500 camera, $4.2 million dollar penthouse suite, etc.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

...$4.2 million dollar penthouse suite, etc.

Don't forget the expensive "girlfriends", and also AVgas for the Gulfstream. That's how we roll.

 

[Texas1911]

That really stuns me about the 1911A1 having such trouble. The first one I built (an econo rattle trap) went 500 rounds without oil or cleaning and no malfunctions and is now at 2100 rounds with nothing but field strip cleaning and no malfunctions.
With the tests being swayed a little, would it have been possible that the test 1911's were tampered with a little to make them give shoddy results?

The 1911 is more susceptible to malfunctions than most people will admit to. The quality of magazines, powder choice, and lubrication are very important to 1911s, even the loose ones. It's not surprising that the guns that were put in the test had a significant amount of malfunctions. Take a completely dry 1911 and put 7,000 rounds through it without cleaning it. That's what they did in the testing, and that's why it did so poorly. Properly maintained, the guns are plenty reliable.

As far as the MARSOC and Recon MEUs, they are not the same pistol as issued before. They are more of an updated model from Springfield, and they have commander hammers, beavertails, etc.

 

[Texas1911]

Don't forget the expensive "girlfriends", and also AVgas for the Gulfstream. That's how we roll.

Silly peasant ... you don't put Av-Gas in a jet engine. You use Jet A.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Silly peasant ... you don't put Av-Gas in a jet engine. You use Jet A.

Hey whadda I know. I'm the one in the back with the girls, you're the one that gases it up and flies the damn thing! Now Po' me anotha gin n tonic!

 

[M. Sage]

Hey whadda I know. I'm the one in the back with the girls, you're the one that gases it up and flies the damn thing! Now Po' me anotha gin n tonic!

I dunno... you want the guy handling Jet A to pour you drinks, too? Don't come crying when they smell (and taste) like kerosene!

 

[majormadmax]

The GAO investigative report titled Allegations on Army Selection of Beretta 9-mm as DOD Standard Sidearm from June 1986 can be found here.

Cheers! M2

 

[equin]

Very interesting thread. I'm considering a 92FS, 96A1, or Sig P226 as my next purchase. While googling about them, I came across this interesting article about the P226 that talks a little more about the test mentioned in the original post:

SIG-Sauer P226

 

[Angered_Kabar]

The Air Force got us straddled with the M-16 because the Air Force General wanted a light weight weapon for his security types. Look how many troops are currently carrying M14s in battle.

Not a whole lot...