Stunning new study finds higher calibers make you more deader!
- Thread starter Kar98
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Don't you love how the good guys in movies always enter the building during a chase scene without a chamber in the round? 'Cause they wait until they have tracked the bad guy down, have confronted him, and then they rack the slide to intimidate the bad guy but no shell is ejected...
Yeah. That too.
seeker_two
My posts don't count....
If you shoot one guy in the eye with a .22lr and another guy in the stomach with the .45Colt, which one is incapacitated faster?You have a point. That .22 is definitely going to immediately incapacitate someone better than a .44 mag or .45.
.....shot placement is key.....
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Well, there're sorta right in a weird perverted way.
A don't have a college degree and I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I have the experience of growing up in a violent inner city area where there was lots of guns and a good number of shootings. My best friend Eli was shot in the stomach in 1968 outside of Gaffney's Irish bar on the corner of 14th street and Colorado ave. This was North East Washington D.C. He ran into a rival gang member and when the fight started the other guy pulled a RG22 and shot Eli in the gut. Eli went down immediately and was out of it and the other guy ran off. Eli recovered but was in the hospital for a bit. I asked him if he could have run or done anything and said "No man, it was like a white hot poker in my guts."
In 1969 I was involved in a self defense shooting in an alley off P street at about 1am. I was bushwhacked in a robbery attempt and the guy swinging a crowbar at my head was really trying to kill me. I had a little 4 barrel Italian made replica of the old Sharps derringer in .22 short. I shot the guy and it had little effect other than him kind of hunching up and trying to swing at my head again. I shot a second time and he doubled over and went down, and I ran like hell. He lived, and I avoided that part of town for a while. The two shots of .22 didn't kill him but it made him go down and curl up in a tight fetal position screaming that's guts were on fire. He did live though.
The third shooting I was familiar with was guy we knew, Gary, who got shot by someone he was robbing. He got one in the chest with a .38 special revolver and was dead right then. Didn't take a step, just dropped inches tracks.
Then our friend Al was killed years late after getting away from the whole gang scene, and had moved out to the Maryland suburbs in Silver Spring just over the Maryland D.C. line. Al had went to work for the government and was a worker clone in the department of whatever. He was in his mod 30's and had been involved in the martial arts and was some umpteenth degree black belt in full contact Karate tournaments. Had a whole case of trophies of wins. He takes the metro train out to his stop and goes over to the parking garage. gets out of the elevator with some fellow commuters and theres this little teenage gang banger with a shiny little Raven .25 telling them to drop their wallets and get back on the elevator and go. They takeout wallets and drop them but Al figures he's Steven Sagal and tried some karate move and the kid shoots him right in the chest. One small bang that all the witnesses said was like a fire cracker. Al takes one step, goes to his knees holdings chest and drops face down on the cement floor, mutters "Oh Shi-" and dies.
Maybe its more about shot placement than size. Both gut shots lived, both chest shots died right there, in spite of the stupid internet BS abut a .25 just making someone angry of they find out you shot them with it. And in 1969 I don't think there was the hollow point ammo that cops carry now. Gary was mostlikey hit by the old 158 grain lead round nose from an old model 10.
But I don't want to argue with the libs. Lets compromise, we'll turn in our large calibers if they give us all a "Little .22 AR15." After all, what harm can occur if we all have little .22's on our shoulders?
And maybe then, they won't bother us with any license just for a little snub nose .22 magnum 8 shot revolver. After all, it holds less than 10 rounds and is a small caliber, so roll back all the license requirements. Or we'll carry the lightweight FN 5.7. A small caliber.
A don't have a college degree and I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I have the experience of growing up in a violent inner city area where there was lots of guns and a good number of shootings. My best friend Eli was shot in the stomach in 1968 outside of Gaffney's Irish bar on the corner of 14th street and Colorado ave. This was North East Washington D.C. He ran into a rival gang member and when the fight started the other guy pulled a RG22 and shot Eli in the gut. Eli went down immediately and was out of it and the other guy ran off. Eli recovered but was in the hospital for a bit. I asked him if he could have run or done anything and said "No man, it was like a white hot poker in my guts."
In 1969 I was involved in a self defense shooting in an alley off P street at about 1am. I was bushwhacked in a robbery attempt and the guy swinging a crowbar at my head was really trying to kill me. I had a little 4 barrel Italian made replica of the old Sharps derringer in .22 short. I shot the guy and it had little effect other than him kind of hunching up and trying to swing at my head again. I shot a second time and he doubled over and went down, and I ran like hell. He lived, and I avoided that part of town for a while. The two shots of .22 didn't kill him but it made him go down and curl up in a tight fetal position screaming that's guts were on fire. He did live though.
The third shooting I was familiar with was guy we knew, Gary, who got shot by someone he was robbing. He got one in the chest with a .38 special revolver and was dead right then. Didn't take a step, just dropped inches tracks.
Then our friend Al was killed years late after getting away from the whole gang scene, and had moved out to the Maryland suburbs in Silver Spring just over the Maryland D.C. line. Al had went to work for the government and was a worker clone in the department of whatever. He was in his mod 30's and had been involved in the martial arts and was some umpteenth degree black belt in full contact Karate tournaments. Had a whole case of trophies of wins. He takes the metro train out to his stop and goes over to the parking garage. gets out of the elevator with some fellow commuters and theres this little teenage gang banger with a shiny little Raven .25 telling them to drop their wallets and get back on the elevator and go. They takeout wallets and drop them but Al figures he's Steven Sagal and tried some karate move and the kid shoots him right in the chest. One small bang that all the witnesses said was like a fire cracker. Al takes one step, goes to his knees holdings chest and drops face down on the cement floor, mutters "Oh Shi-" and dies.
Maybe its more about shot placement than size. Both gut shots lived, both chest shots died right there, in spite of the stupid internet BS abut a .25 just making someone angry of they find out you shot them with it. And in 1969 I don't think there was the hollow point ammo that cops carry now. Gary was mostlikey hit by the old 158 grain lead round nose from an old model 10.
But I don't want to argue with the libs. Lets compromise, we'll turn in our large calibers if they give us all a "Little .22 AR15." After all, what harm can occur if we all have little .22's on our shoulders?
And maybe then, they won't bother us with any license just for a little snub nose .22 magnum 8 shot revolver. After all, it holds less than 10 rounds and is a small caliber, so roll back all the license requirements. Or we'll carry the lightweight FN 5.7. A small caliber.
Of course larger calibers have more killing power. Didn't need another study for that. It's been known for a fact since the days of the Philippine/American War when the .38 Long Colt cartridge was found insufficient against hopped up Moro rebels, resulting in the design of the 1911 in .45 ACP.
The silliness of their conclusion is what I'm laughing at here, that this "dispels the notion that guns don't kill people.", as if a .50BMG suddenly were sentient and acting of its own will.
The silliness of their conclusion is what I'm laughing at here, that this "dispels the notion that guns don't kill people.", as if a .50BMG suddenly were sentient and acting of its own will.
Sarcasm? Is that sarcasm in a thread about death? LolYou have a point. That .22 is definitely going to immediately incapacitate someone better than a .44 mag or .45.
10 points if you identify the movie reference there.
Never said a 22 will incapacitate faster than a 44 or 45. My reference re 22 was about total deaths caused eventually from being shot with one. If they were honest they wouldn't have got the answer they did.
My point is not to let them win the spin. They had a predetermined answer and designed a study to reach it.
We're not worried about a round killing or even intending to kill. We're about stopping. They are talking about a straw man arguement about eventual death from the bigger caliber, not what happens right when you're shot. That means they excluded or ignored all the other studies that say otherwise. They intended to show bigger is scary and deadlier.
22 caliber bullets, hole size not specific caliber but all 22s combined, has caused more deaths throughout history than other size bullets. That doesn't mean they are powerful instantly slaying dragons demons and bad guys, only that It's just numbers and time. Lots of people shot over long time periods equal lots dying. Again the Same government doing the study but they just wanted a different answer. Look it up and see.
Dying from a gun shot has so many variables beyond bullet size that its laughable they would even try to quantify hole size alone and limit the study sample. Same goes for a bullet stopping your deadly threat asap. Many variables. They just wanted to point and scream "look big hole scary gun" for a while till they come up with a solution to this problem the created. You know what that's going to be? Ya you know, more laws for the children.
Those of us who carry for defense dont care if the hole will eventually kill you, we just want the threat to our lives to stop. In that instance it's still not about hole size rather energy and placement. 22s are generally poor at stopping action immediately even if they can kill you 2 hours weeks or months from now. Bigger faster slower smaller barrel length shot placement and even mindset of the one being shot play into stopping power. You add another dozen variables to determine why or if it eventually kills you.
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... There's a lot of incredible numbers in there that they just ignore for SOME reason.
SloppyShooter
Certifiable
Depends on the perpetrators heart condition.
Yeah, let's talk about that shot placement.
Your heart is pounding so loud you can hear it in your ears. Adrenalin surge has your hands shaking. Emotions are sky high. You are in a kill or be killed situation. And you will calmly and carefully aim that .22 at a target that is probably moving and place a perfect shot.
Right...
Go back and look at the video of the cop who chased down a Tahoe whose occupants were shooting at him. He could not even pull off a mag change.
Anyone counting on shot placement in an encounter is likely to end up dead.
seeker_two
My posts don't count....
.....and that takes away the importance of shot placement how? Might as well have everyone carry Taurus Judges.....
I get your point,as cryptic as it is, [ i.e. that placement was a consideration in the summation of the report? Another glaring example of a flawed propaganda piece?] Incase you actually mean what you wrote I gotta ask in such an encounter isnt shot placement the primary point of the exercise and years of training done in preparation for the possibility of a deadly threat response?
In reality after justification shot placement is ultimate consideration.
Unless your chuckin grenades or small tactical nukes over your shoulder as you run away screaming like a bitch into the night.
Just sayin.
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Could be, never been there, BUT with the practice I had I would hope the shooting part would go on autopilot. That's why I trained and competed in matches. Besides I like to shoot.
Of course it is the primary point of training. That is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. But very, very few people will ever get enough practice in to walk into such a high stress situation for the first time and demonstrate excellent shot placement.
You can give it all the consideration you want. But very few will be able actually execute perfect shot placement in that situation.
Thus, using a larger caliber has value. Bigger hole, bigger wound channel, more bleeding, more nerves screaming, greater impact.
And save your "running away" comments for your recess time on the playground, little boy.
Just sayin.
I'd see a doctor for that case of the ass. They have wonderful treatments now days.
People disagree with what you wrote. They can't read your mind and follow with the mental gymnastics to see its not exactly what you meant so they respond and you dont like youngins disagreeing. I get it.
Counting on shot placement is the whole point of the exercise regardless if its from god like muscle memory and control from years of competition or pointing the dangerous end towards danger and going pew pew. Otherwise your better off chucking grenades and go running of into the night screaming for help.
That case of the ass? You will get over it. I'm sure. Now, I see the teeter totter just opens up and I gotta run.
People disagree with what you wrote. They can't read your mind and follow with the mental gymnastics to see its not exactly what you meant so they respond and you dont like youngins disagreeing. I get it.
Counting on shot placement is the whole point of the exercise regardless if its from god like muscle memory and control from years of competition or pointing the dangerous end towards danger and going pew pew. Otherwise your better off chucking grenades and go running of into the night screaming for help.
That case of the ass? You will get over it. I'm sure. Now, I see the teeter totter just opens up and I gotta run.
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I never said it did. I said I would hope my training would kick in. I was confident it would.
