Taser - A must for CHLers

[Texan2]

Texascop2 thanks for the confirmation. There is a good reason that is why cops carry it and use it. As an armed citizen why not to copy it from the cop ?

no one is saying not to carry a Taser, just that it is no replacement for a gun. As far as copying the cops, police and civilians are charged with 2 different tasks. You are responsible for keeping yourself safe. We are responsible for arresting people and taking individuals into custody agaist their will, as well as engaing aggresive individuals, thats where the Taser comes in handy. I can see Tasers being used in the LE world much more than in the civilian world.

 

[chiefglocker]

That being said, if you decided that you could not kill someone, you shouldn't carry a gun.

You got a point Texas42. I must agree with you that if a person is not prepared mentally to kill in self-defense then he/she should not carry a gun.

Can you please share with us how you were able to acquire the mindset that you can shoot to kill if the need arises ? Was it a gradual process undergoing lots of soul searching and
contemplating over the facts of life ? Or it was a over night realization that now I have a gun and the CHL if I shoot and kill my assailant I can deal with the aftermath no matter what.

 

[Adionik]

I pray to god that if I ever have to draw my weapon, it's presence should stop the assailant from whatever they're doing once they see it...even if it doesn't, I have the means to handle a situation.

I cannot imagine a taser stopping anyone from doing something...

Especially in TEXAS. Hell, everyone around here carries knives at the very least.

 

[West Texas]

You got a point Texas42. I must agree with you that if a person is not prepared mentally to kill in self-defense then he/she should not carry a gun.

Can you please share with us how you were able to acquire the mindset that you can shoot to kill if the need arises ? Was it a gradual process undergoing lots of soul searching and
contemplating over the facts of life ? Or it was a over night realization that now I have a gun and the CHL if I shoot and kill my assailant I can deal with the aftermath no matter what.

As a long time friend who happens to be a retired Texas Ranger told me one time...

"I carry a sidearm not TO shoot someone, but in the hopes that because I know I have an "Ace in the Hole" that I will never have to...But if the situation does arrise, I will know that I did all I could to try to save some poor stupid bastard from making a mistake that ended up costing him his life".

I've personally never carried with the thought of shooting someone. Instead, I've always carried with the comfort of knowing that I have a lot of options to defuse a bad situation BECAUSE I have the sidearm, options that I might not have had otherwise.

If someones FIRST "line of defense" mindset is to shoot or taze, chances are they don't need to have the ability to do either one.

 

[BG1960]

Cannot imagine a situation wherein I would use a taser. As tc2 said, it ain't my duty to apprehend and control. CHL class pretty well covered when deadly force is permissible, and that is a lot wider scope than I have to tell the truth. I see it a lot like the quote from the Texas Ranger above. I have drawn a gun on exactly three people in 50 years on this earth. Each time I was prayin' they would BTFO, 'cause I was fixin' to send them to their eternal reward without a second thought. It's laughable now to think about drawing a taser in those situations.

 

[Moss_Berg5150]

IMO... I don't think it’s a good idea to carry around a variety of different weapons. Maybe an concealed gun and a pocket knife at the most. You are training for one thing and one thing only and that is to stop the person trying to kill you and or your family/innocent victim! I know some people grow up in environments where they honestly cannot tell the difference from some one wants to kick your a$$ and someone who wants to kill you... that’s where training and education come in, but if you are too busy trying to decide what’s going on and which weapon you should use for the situation at hand you are already wrong in my book!!! Avoid trouble, run away shoot if all else fails!!!!

 

[Texan2]

I cannot imagine a taser stopping anyone from doing something...

Obviously you have never been hit with a Taser

 

[Dcav]

Obviously you have never been hit with a Taser

Sounds like a volunteer to me lol

 

[Texan2]

i took one for the team during training, and outside of actually taking a bullet in the head or chest I cant imagine anything being more incapacitating.

 

[bwdilli]

bwdilli,
Why dont you think that cops should carry Tasers? In their abscence an officer or suspect may be seriously injured. Injuries that could have been avoided by Tasing them. I suppose another option would be to go hands on with a metal baton and break some bones....but that seems to be more damaging to the suspect and more dangerous to the officer.
IMO people who are anti-Taser (for LEOs) are not well versed on its capabilities, limits and purpose.

I'll try to sum it up. Realise that my father is a retired police officer. I also was a Correctional Officer with the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice. I am by no means anti-police but I do see some disturbing trends.

(1) Do you know the complete medical history of every person you taser? If not when you pull that taser you better be prepared to kill them because that's just what you might do.

On September 30, 2009, the manufacturer issued a warning and new targeting guidelines to law enforcement agencies to aim shots below the chest center mass as "avoiding chest shots with ECDs avoids the controversy about whether ECDs do or do not affect the human heart". http://www.taser.com/legal/Documents/TASER Training Bulletin 15 Research.pdf

Seems that there has been over 300 documented deaths associated with Tasers between 2001 and 2008. " Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI)", Taser International, published March 12, 2007, accessed May 19, 2007

(2)These aren't my words but they describe what I want to say better then I can come up with.

The use of Tasers as compliance tools — means for compelling behavior — has generated a huge amount of protest. For many, the famous “Don’t Tase me, bro” incident, in which student Andrew Meyer was Tasered at a political debate, signaled an alarming new form of oppression. (Others have accused Meyer of setting the whole thing up as a stunt.) Perhaps the distinguishing feature of the Taser, compared with other forms of enforcing compliance, is that it can be used with one finger. Police have always been able enforce their wishes using batons or manual force, but a Taser is a much easier option, and perhaps this makes it more prone to abuse. Whether it’s zapping an unruly student protester, an uncooperative 11-year-old or an abusive driver, the trite observation that power corrupts may have some truth here.

Read More Court to Cops: Stop Tasing People into Compliance | Danger Room | Wired.com​

I see a disturbing trend that police officers enforcing their will upon non-physically threatening people. The trend also seems to show less dispute resolution skills being used.

3) The death of Oscar Grant in Oakland by Police Officer Johannes Mehserle was blamed on the officer incorrectly choosing the wrong weapon. He claims he was meaning to use his taser, he actually pulled his firearm. He then shot Oscar Grant in the back while restrained.

There's more reasons I'm just trying to keep it brief.


​

 

[Texan2]

I'll try to sum it up. Realise that my father is a retired police officer. I also was a Correctional Officer with the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice. I am by no means anti-police but I do see some disturbing trends.

(1) Do you know the complete medical history of every person you taser? If not when you pull that taser you better be prepared to kill them because that's just what you might do.

On September 30, 2009, the manufacturer issued a warning and new targeting guidelines to law enforcement agencies to aim shots below the chest center mass as "avoiding chest shots with ECDs avoids the controversy about whether ECDs do or do not affect the human heart". http://www.taser.com/legal/Documents/TASER%20Training%20Bulletin%2015%20Research.pdf

Seems that there has been over 300 documented deaths associated with Tasers between 2001 and 2008. " Neuromuscular Incapacitation (NMI)", Taser International, published March 12, 2007, accessed May 19, 2007

(2)These aren't my words but they describe what I want to say better then I can come up with.

I see a disturbing trend that police officers enforcing their will upon non-physically threatening people. The trend also seems to show less dispute resolution skills being used. ​

3) The death of Oscar Grant in Oakland by Police Officer Johannes Mehserle was blamed on the officer incorrectly choosing the wrong weapon. He claims he was meaning to use his taser, he actually pulled his firearm. He then shot Oscar Grant in the back while restrained.​

There's more reasons I'm just trying to keep it brief.​

An interesting op-ed piece you posted but...I dont know their medical history, nor do I need to. When I pull a baton it may kill them or pepper spray may kill them. The number of people who have died after a Taser shot is a miniscule fraction of a percent, literally a number which is barely measureable. My response in use of force scenarios is based on the suspects behavior. Many people have died from pepper spray inhalation. Many people have died after receiving shots to the head from a baton that were unintended. What you dont take into account is the number of people a Taser saved from getting shot and killed or from receiving a life threatening blow from a baton.

An officer who picks up his gun instead of Taser has made a training mistake not a Taser mistake. That is the same logic that says guns are the reason we have gun violence. Dont blame the weapon, blame the person holding it.

There will always be isolated cases in which there are injuries or death with any weapon. In addition most that have died after a Taser shot (not from a Taser shot), have had lethal levels of narcotics in their system.

Up until last year every police officer that carried a Taser got shocked with one first, I believe the number is now in the hundreds of thousands. I have not heard of one officer that died from this training.

Officers have used their guns in illegal/unethical manners in isolated cases yet there is no call for taking away all guns from the police. If an officer is using a Taser in an unauthrized manner, he should be disciplined or fired....again not a Taser problem, an officer problem.

The acceptance of Tasers among LE agencies is now overwhelming and the arguements against them are very hard to support. For some reason when it comes to "shocking" bad guys, it strikes a nerve with a certain part of the populace. In reality it is much more humane and safe then most other use of force methods.

 

[M. Sage]

A person can learn a great deal about the human condition from the game of poker. I was reading a book by noted poker champion Phil Hellmuth. The book was about poker, sure, but a good 70% of poker is being able to read people and only %30 about the cards themselves. The specifics of the book were about human beings "non verbal" communication and how it is supposed to be the most honest of all of our forms of communication because human beings are hard-wired in their DNA with a "flight or fight" response when thrust into an applicable situation and it has helped serve humans over the years as we were hunters and gatherers and there were other, LARGER predators stalking the forests and plains. The initial shock of the situation may freeze somebody but then their fight or flight response should kick in.

IMO the freeze is something learned, not instinctual. You freeze because you're faced with a situation that society has taught you cannot be happening. We're shielded from the possibility of personal violence (or even personal danger), so when those situations pop up, we can be totally unprepared and this causes you to freeze. I actually experienced that during a motorcycle crash. As I'm sliding on the pavement watching the bike slide away from me, I literally closed my eyes and gave my head a little jerk to try and wake up.

You got a point Texas42. I must agree with you that if a person is not prepared mentally to kill in self-defense then he/she should not carry a gun.

Can you please share with us how you were able to acquire the mindset that you can shoot to kill if the need arises ? Was it a gradual process undergoing lots of soul searching and
contemplating over the facts of life ? Or it was a over night realization that now I have a gun and the CHL if I shoot and kill my assailant I can deal with the aftermath no matter what.

Suggested reading: On Killing by Col. Dave Grossman. To use lethal force on-demand, about 80-85% of the population needs to train. The military uses operant and pavlovian conditioning. They shoot at person-shaped targets, and get rewarded for doing it well. This creates a positive association with putting sights on target and pulling the trigger. That (along with a few other tricks) is enough to overcome their natural aversions.

 

[Texan2]

Suggested reading: On Killing by Col. Dave Grossman. To use lethal force on-demand, about 80-85% of the population needs to train. The military uses operant and pavlovian conditioning. They shoot at person-shaped targets, and get rewarded for doing it well. This creates a positive association with putting sights on target and pulling the trigger. That (along with a few other tricks) is enough to overcome their natural aversions.

Dave Grossman is an amazing speaker....I heard him speak to police officers at Texas A&M a few years ago. I was inspired.

 

[Clockwork]

Clockwork, You are the one o,f if not the ONLY "left wing Liberal" that I've ever seen that thinks like a conservative, at least on occassion!

Now, see, I thought I'd get out of at least THIS topic without being kicked in the nuts!

 

[West Texas]

Now, see, I thought I'd get out of at least THIS topic without being kicked in the nuts!

When TS is too busy, I've been assigned to take the cheap shots...

 

[Medic218]

To stay on topic...
I wont carry a taser because as is I carry my pistol, 2 extra mags and my kershaw. Much more and I'll need a full on batman duty belt with keepers and all just to hold everything up.

Secondly, if that nut job had come at my truck like that I think it would have suprised me so much that it would have scared the shit out of me and I too would have more than likely felt in feer of my life at that point and would have made a paper weight out of him once he was busting out my driver window(arms reach from me with a pipe is a very real threat in my book) if I couldn't just drive away....much like it appears that the victim in the blue PT Cruiser was unable to do.

 

[TxDad]

... if I couldn't just drive away....much like it appears that the victim in the blue PT Cruiser was unable to do.

Thats what I was thinking. The anger would say to shoot him, but if you could get away thats the best approach. But it looked like he/she backed up several times, obviously unable to leave the scene. I would think at that moment it would have been appropriate to take action. The man had a deadly weapon and was making his intentions pretty obvious.
*Either way at least from the what the video showed glad she wasnt actually struck with it.

 

[chiefglocker]

I found my answer.

 

[chiefglocker]

Suggested reading: On Killing by Col. Dave Grossman. To use lethal force on-demand, about 80-85% of the population needs to train. The military uses operant and pavlovian conditioning. They shoot at person-shaped targets, and get rewarded for doing it well. This creates a positive association with putting sights on target and pulling the trigger. That (along with a few other tricks) is enough to overcome their natural aversions.

M.Sage thanks for suggesting the book by Lt. Col.Dave Grossman. I was able to read the gist of " On killing" Now I am gonna buy this book and read between the lines.

I am a sheep now. Hopefully I will be able to transform myself into a sheep dog one day