Theory that CHL+ Concealed handgun = I can carry an illegal knife/club

[barstoolguru]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I read the section Section 46.02 and under chapter #2 of the hand book does NOT say these weapons are allowable if you have a CHL. the fact is a CHL is concealed handgun lic. and not concealed weapons permit (knife, blackjack, switch blade, brass knuckels, dble sided blade)

 

[txinvestigator]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I read the section Section 46.02 and under chapter #2 of the hand book does NOT say these weapons are allowable if you have a CHL. the fact is a CHL is concealed handgun lic. and not concealed weapons permit (knife, blackjack, switch blade, brass knuckels, dble sided blade)

Let us take it one step at a time. Why does a person need a CHL to carry a handgun outside of his premises, premises under his control or a vehicle? Answer: Because Texas Penal Code section 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun, illegal knife, or a club if not at one of those locations. So then, how does a person carry a handgun outside of those places? There must be some law that makes Penal Code 46.02 not applicable when in possession of a CHL, right?

In fact, Penal Code section 46.15(b) states that section 46.02 (the law that proscribes the carry of handguns, illegal knives and clubs) does not apply to a person who meets certsin requirements. That means if a person meets any of the requirments of 46.15 (b) then tbe person is not prohibited from carrying a handgun, illegal knife or club. Still with me?

For example, 46.15(b) says 46.02 does not apply to a person traveling. That means a traveler can carry a handgun, illegal knife or club. Likewise, it says that 46.02 does not apply to a person who is carrying a CHL and a handgun of the proper category. Since 46.02 addresses handguns, illegal knives and clubs, if it does not apply to a person possesing a CHL and handgun, then such a person can carry any weapon otherwise restricted under 46.02, meaning illegal knives and clubs.

It is quite clear, and quite simple.

 

[Steve M]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Here's the problem, this "interpretation" will at least get you a ride down to the station, if not a date in court.

I was just teaching a knife class to a group of Texas LEOs, not newbies, all vets, and these were knife guys who were willing to take a knife class on their own dime/time. I presented this "interpretation" to them, and to a man they all raised their eyebrows and said statements to the effect of "whatever" "no way" and "news to me." Now they did say that it would be a very unusual situation indeed where they would be measuring a CHL holder's knife while he was carrying a pistol in an otherwise legal manner, but they all agreed over 5.5" would be a chargeable offense with or without CHL.

So...somebody please jump on this grenade for the team and fight this "interpretation" in court, but until then it's a 5.5" knife for me (at least one).

 

[txinvestigator]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Here's the problem, this "interpretation" will at least get you a ride down to the station, if not a date in court.

It is not an interpretation. Read the laws for yourself. Every cop I know, and I know many, are fully aware of this law

I was just teaching a knife class to a group of Texas LEOs, not newbies, all vets, and these were knife guys who were willing to take a knife class on their own dime/time. I presented this "interpretation" to them, and to a man they all raised their eyebrows and said statements to the effect of "whatever" "no way" and "news to me." Now they did say that it would be a very unusual situation indeed where they would be measuring a CHL holder's knife while he was carrying a pistol in an otherwise legal manner, but they all agreed over 5.5" would be a chargeable offense with or without CHL.

If that is true, then they are wrong. Simply show them the law.

 

[SC-Texas]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

The law says what what it says. Those cops are the same guys who believe that a silencer in the hands of a civilian is illegal regardless of what the law says and that a machine-gun with papers merits a ride to the jail.

Of course, that is why leo's have to ask a district attorney to accept charges. Hopefully the d.a. Can read.

 

[Rum Runner]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

If we're honest about it it was about armed blacks at the time with the same justification as "Saturday Night Specials" being ban from import.

Here is a small portion of the argument of Attorney General Roberts in the Texas Supreme Court in Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex 394 (1859).

"The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted. It is an exceeding destructive weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With thse weapons men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor, not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost certain death. He who carries such a weapon, for lawful defense, as he may, makes himself more dangerous to the rights of others, considering the frailties of human nature, than if he carried a less dangerous weapon."

Mate always finds the coolest stuff...

 

[Steve M]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

It is not an interpretation. Read the laws for yourself. Every cop I know, and I know many, are fully aware of this law

If that is true, then they are wrong. Simply show them the law.

I agree with you the law explicitly says 46.02 does not apply: however; that interpretation is far from common among TX LEOs. I can only speak for the LEOs I just mentioned, but I'm certain we wouldn't even be having this discussion if that interpretation were common. So for the moment it's a question of how willing you are to get a mugshot.

If you are at the point where an officer is measuring your knife you are well beyond "simply show them the law." It's not worth the ride down to the station, for me anyways.

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I agree with you the law explicitly says 46.02 does not apply: however; that interpretation is far from common among TX LEOs. I can only speak for the LEOs I just mentioned, but I'm certain we wouldn't even be having this discussion if that interpretation were common. So for the moment it's a question of how willing you are to get a mugshot.

If you are at the point where an officer is measuring your knife you are well beyond "simply show them the law." It's not worth the ride down to the station, for me anyways.

If the law states it clearly, then it's not an "interpretation". If the law states it clearly and a cop still will arrest you for it, he's engaging in creative interpretation and is not a good cop. I suggest a job at the nearest Whataburger for this hypothetical officer.

 

[Kimber_me_timbers]

46.02, in my opinion, only addresses the question of dual weilding of handguns. Skip past the first part and read the last part talking about carrying a handgun that is of the same classification as the one theyre already carrying, meaning that I can carry two or more handguns, not a tossed salad of whatever illegal weapons I choose to pack at the time.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I think we can agree that from a purely grammatical/deductive logic standpoint, the way it is written clearly says "No 46.02 if Concealed handgun and CHL".

My problem is that if you accept this, you have to think that instead of "is carrying a concealed handgun" intending to clarify which item under 46.02 is non-applicable, that someone intended to make it so that if I have a CHL and choose not to carry a concealed handgun that I cannot carry a illegal knife or club. That makes no sense.

So then you have to wonder which was really intended. That a handgun is exempt if you have a CHL, or if you have a CHL then you can carry other deadly weapons which someone without a CHL couldn't.

I totally agree with M2 that the whole "illegal knife" thing makes no sense. I mean how can a Bowie Knife we illegal in TX of all places? Jim Bowie would do backflips in his grave if he hadn't been cremated.

Even if there was an example of a CHL holder being arrested with an illegal knife/club and charges were dropped or AG would not file...whatever, then I would feel much better. I have not seen any evidence of that and this has been on the books this way for a long time now.

Doesn't matter what was intended. When carrying a CHL and a concealed handgun 46.02 does not apply. If arrested or charged under these conditions for carrying an illegal knife or club, 46.02 must apply. But, then carrying your concealed handgun would be illegal. 46.02 cannot apply and not apply at the same time.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

46.02, in my opinion, only addresses the question of dual weilding of handguns. Skip past the first part and read the last part talking about carrying a handgun that is of the same classification as the one theyre already carrying, meaning that I can carry two or more handguns, not a tossed salad of whatever illegal weapons I choose to pack at the time.

That's in 46.15 not 46.02. It means if you took your CHL test with a revolver you may carry a concealed revolver and not a semi auto. In addition to the revolver however you may carry clubs and illegal knives because 46.02 does not apply to you. Of course, 46.03 and 46.035 still apply.

 

[Steve M]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

If the law states it clearly, then it's not an "interpretation". If the law states it clearly and a cop still will arrest you for it, he's engaging in creative interpretation and is not a good cop. I suggest a job at the nearest Whataburger for this hypothetical officer.

But, assuming I don't want a ride down to the station, the issue is not what the law says but what the officer thinks it says; i.e, his "interpretation". The lack of any consensus about this "interpretation" on this pro-weapon/pro-right-to-carry forum makes it clear one could expect little consensus among LEOs on the issue.

Maybe this is the issue TGT should use its $10k for: a legal defense fund for anyone who follows this "carry any illegal weapon with your CHL" advice.

 

[txinvestigator]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

46.02, in my opinion, only addresses the question of dual weilding of handguns. Skip past the first part and read the last part talking about carrying a handgun that is of the same classification as the one theyre already carrying, meaning that I can carry two or more handguns, not a tossed salad of whatever illegal weapons I choose to pack at the time.

Actually 46.02 has nothing to do with any of that. 46.15(b) is the law that makes 46.02 non-applicable, meaning NONE OF IT APPLIES. Go actually READ them.

The rest of your post is wrong as well.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

I have been aware of this stipulation although I always wonder when it will get tested in court. Many officers I know area also aware of it. Others are not.....to imply that if they are not aware of it they should work at Whataburger is a bit of a stretch, but the legislature should address it to make it a bit more transparent. It is worded porly IMO.

Most cops I know wont arrest you for a 6 inch knife in the first place.

 

[M. Sage]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

But, assuming I don't want a ride down to the station, the issue is not what the law says but what the officer thinks it says; i.e, his "interpretation". The lack of any consensus about this "interpretation" on this pro-weapon/pro-right-to-carry forum makes it clear one could expect little consensus among LEOs on the issue.

Maybe this is the issue TGT should use its $10k for: a legal defense fund for anyone who follows this "carry any illegal weapon with your CHL" advice.

This situation is why we need to reduce the protections police officers have from lawsuits. Ignorance of the law is no excuse on my end, but it is on their end?

I have been aware of this stipulation although I always wonder when it will get tested in court. Many officers I know area also aware of it. Others are not.....to imply that if they are not aware of it they should work at Whataburger is a bit of a stretch, but the legislature should address it to make it a bit more transparent. It is worded porly IMO.

Most cops I know wont arrest you for a 6 inch knife in the first place.

If I don't want to get fired and/or sued, I need to know my job inside and out... That's all I've got to say about that.

 

[smtimelevi]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

This situation is why we need to reduce the protections police officers have from lawsuits. Ignorance of the law is no excuse on my end, but it is on their end?



If I don't want to get fired and/or sued, I need to know my job inside and out... That's all I've got to say about that.

Best post all day.

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

But, assuming I don't want a ride down to the station, the issue is not what the law says but what the officer thinks it says; i.e, his "interpretation". The lack of any consensus about this "interpretation" on this pro-weapon/pro-right-to-carry forum makes it clear one could expect little consensus among LEOs on the issue.

The only people here who disagree are new members who still believe you can only carry handguns because "it's a concealed handgun license". These people have no idea what CHL is or how it works.

Also, "what if the Police arrest you anyway?" can apply to anything. What if the Police think suppressors are illegal (which they are, ha)? What if the Police think green tip M855 is AP? This type of speculation could go on forever. I know that when I am carrying 46.02 does not apply to me and I refuse to live in fear of the chance of meeting a crooked cop.

 

[Texan2]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

This situation is why we need to reduce the protections police officers have from lawsuits. Ignorance of the law is no excuse on my end, but it is on their end?



If I don't want to get fired and/or sued, I need to know my job inside and out... That's all I've got to say about that.

Just as you dont know EVERYTHING about every car on the road, there is no feasable way for any human to know EVERY law and its proper application....there are volumes of laws and after years of enforcing them I still learn new things....I would imagine that is common among mechanics as well.

The standards that some wish to impose on officers is beyond absurd.

This is a law that was poorly worded and has yet to be tested. Common sense would dictate that the intent of a CHL was not to carry an illegal knife, but the way the law is worded it allows you to.

 

[Kimber_me_timbers]

Just as you dont know EVERYTHING about every car on the road, there is no feasable way for any human to know EVERY law and its proper application....there are volumes of laws and after years of enforcing them I still learn new things....I would imagine that is common among mechanics as well.

The standards that some wish to impose on officers is beyond absurd.

This is an law that was poorly worded and has yet to be tested. Common sense would dictate that the intent of a CHL was not to carry an illegal knife, but the way the law is worded it allows you to.

I think were all complicating this issue a bit. If you're carrying a handgun and a 7" assisted opener and find yourself at the business end of a maniacle tweaker trying to roll you for his next fix, you going for the blade or are you going for roscoe?

I would personally go for roscoe first, I know most of you here will say "what if your weapon malfunctions? Run out of ammo? You drop it or it somehow gets away from you?" My answer to that is easy; if any of those things happen, I'm probably fucked anyway, and in the off-chance a blade can effectivley get me out of that situation, what advantage does a 7" blade have over a 5" blade? You're most likley not going to be stabbing in that situation anyway, more like slashing and hacking, so length is irrelevant. Why risk suffering the consequences of officer friendly not thinking the same way you do on the subject? To prove a point? To rage against the machine? Well imho thats stupid.

So if I am understanding bithabus right, as long as I have my CHL in my wallet, a kimber IWB, and the means to afford it, I can fly around in a fully armed MIG jet because my CHL magically makes me immune to weapons laws...

If thats the case, I'm going to go buy some lotto tickets and put a call in to my russian contact and have that badboy delivered!!

My advise, avoid the grey areas, carry a .45ACP 1911 IWB, and a North American Arms .22short in your front pocket, and a CRKT M21 tactical folder(5.5") in your back pocket on your strong side. Haven't run into a cop yet thats had a problem with that arrangement.


$.02

 

[Bithabus]

Re: Theory that CHL+Concealed handgun=I can carry an illegal knife/club

Just as you dont know EVERYTHING about every car on the road, there is no feasable way for any human to know EVERY law and its proper application....there are volumes of laws and after years of enforcing them I still learn new things....I would imagine that is common among mechanics as well.

The standards that some wish to impose on officers is beyond absurd.

This is an law that was poorly worded and has yet to be tested. Common sense would dictate that the intent of a CHL was not to carry an illegal knife, but the way the law is worded it allows you to.

I disagree. A mechanic must know what he is doing, when he does it. I don't expect my mechanic to know everything about every car, but when it comes time to make repairs he must use the correct parts and the correct tools and do the job correctly. If he installed the wrong parts because he has no idea what he's doing and didn't bother to look up the correct procedure, he would be a crooked mechanic and subject to civil and criminal penalties. Peace Officers should be held to the same standards as any other group of professionals. Do cops not have access to electronic copies of the PC? Is it impossible to call a superior or someone at the DA's office for advice? A cop arresting someone for violating a statute which does not apply to him is no different from a mechanic blowing up my engine because he has no idea what he's doing.